Newbie Sos! Cycles, Babies, And Passing Fish!

[JacCash]

Hi, everyone! I am new to Fishforums, and new to the fish world. I am looking for all the help I can get! I was given a 10-gallon as a birthday gift, and I went to a specialty fish store here in town as soon as I got it. I was given 4- white cloud minnows and was told they would cycle my tank and not to take anything out of my water, add any water, or change my filter for at least 8 weeks, and to look at getting Molly fish after 4 weeks or so. In the first five weeks I looked up different types of fish, what they eat, how to care for them, who would be happy in my tank pretty much. I brought my water to Petsmart, and they tested it and told me it was perfect, and I got two dalmatian balloon Mollys. They told me to change my filter now, so I did. And they said to wait another week or so to come back for the clown pleco. A week later, I got my bottom feeder, and a piece of drift wood, and mentioned to the gentlemen that the more I read online, the more I feel I should really be doing water changes, even though the specialty store told me not to 8 weeks. He said to absolutely do a 20% water change, he re-tested my water, it was absolutely perfect, so I did the water change. I noticed one of my molly's was almost.. hyper. like, going crazy in the currents. 
 
Fast forward one week ( this last Friday), I come home from a movie, and am staring at my fish tank and all my lovely fishes, and I throw in the shrimp cube ( they get them on weekends), and I notice something at the bottom of my tank ( I have black rocks and lots of plants), and it is a BABY MOLLY... and because I did my research before getting them, I know they have live babies, and I know they eat their babies, so I start fishing them out; I only found two. The next morning, I went back to petsmart, got a nursery net, and a few hours later, found a few more, and a few more, and found 7 all together ( 2 dead ones). Later Saturday night, I found the mom dead in the plant. I picked her up, with a sample of my water, and brought her back to petsmart to see what is going on... they tested my water and told me that the nitrate came back neon pink ( really high). Even though my test days before that it was perfect. They told me to add more chemical and to come back the next day for a new Molly to replace the dead one. I never went back as I am horrified for my fish now, as I don't even know if they are comfortable. My last Molly, I couldn't find today ( Looked in the plants and such), I have a big ship, and I am assuming she is hiding in there, or even worse, could possibly be dead, and she never came out for food last night....
 
 
I am already looking into a 20 gallon tank as now my fish have possibly outgrown my tank already (if my babies make it through this), and now I don't even know when I would do that, or how I would do that, especially with babies, or if my cycle isn't set anymore. 
 
 
Any advise would be lovely right now. Thank you so much!!! ( and for reading this novel of an SOS!!!)
 

 

[Baccus]

Welcome to the forum

sorry that its under such trying circumstances in your first foray into fish keeping.
 
Sad to say many shops are only interested in selling merchandise (and sadly live creatures are considered merchandise or product too), and would rather push you into making speedy purchases rather than advise caution and help you start your tank the best way from day dot. Keep in mind not all shops are this way inclined but now you have a good guide to use when you go to other shops seeking advice. If they give the same bad information that the first shop did then you can take most of anything else they say with a grain of salt too.
 
I would say that your fish died from ammonia poisoning due to the tank/ filter not being cycled. When we say cycled we mean the beneficial bacteria that lives in the filter and tank that eat the ammonia converting to less dangerous componants such as Nitrite and Nitrate being established. These two chemicals are still toxic to fish but with regular water changes and an established bacteria colony the fish will be safe from ammonia poisoning.
Do you by any chance have your own water testing kit? If not I would strongly suggest getting something like API liquid test kit (but check any expiry dates on it), over the usually cheaper but often faulty stripe tests. With your own test kit you can easily check your water yourself and do water changes as needed while your cycle is settling. These water changes may need to be done on a daily or even twice daily routine until the bacteria can start to really establish.
What chemical did the shop tell you to add? Was it by chance bottled bacteria that is sold as a quick way to cycle a tank? Or was it something like Ammonia Lock that is supposed to lock up the ammonia and prevent it harming your fish?
Do you have some chlorine/ chloramine remover? I would strongly advise you to purchase some as this stops the new water when you do water changes carrying in chlorine and chloramine that will kill your benefictial bacteria. If your on your own tank or well water than this may not be as necessary but still worth investing in for other benefits to the fish.
 
The link below is mainly how to cycle a tank fishless, but because you already have fish you will need to do a fish in cycle.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first
 
This link is more to do with Fish in cycling
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/

 

[Akasha72]

Hello and welcome 

. So sorry to read that you've hit these problems but sadly it's normal for us to reply to threads such as this. Baccus is correct in all she has said. A lot of fish stores are more focused on profits than animal welfare. There is often the 'it's just a fish' attitude - something that makes my blood boil. 
 
Anyway, Baccus has given you the links for the beginners sections and I'd highly recommend that you have a good read there as it saves us re-typing the information. What has happened is that this fish store has got you into a 'fish-in cycle'. They can work, I have done them myself in the early days when I didn't know any better but I was lucky, I had a great local fish store that wouldn't allow me to buy more than 3 fish once a fortnight. They also told me about water changes every week. We recommend a minimum of 20% of fresh water every week. As Baccus has said you may need to do far more than that if you are getting high readings to lower that figure. I would also recommend getting your own test kit - make sure you get a liquid drop test not the dip strips as those are really inaccurate. The API Masterkit seems to be the one that's readily available in all countries but there are many others available.
 
Once you have your test kit I would test your tap water aswell as the tank as it's always good to know what you are dealing with from the tap. Some water sources contain ammonia and nitrate and so knowing if it's present in your tap water gives you a head start.
 
One thing to point out to you - never change the filter media unless it is falling to pieces. All it needs is a rinse in old tank water when you do your water changes
 
Hope that helps you. If there's anything you don't understand just ask. Nothing is a silly question. Good luck

EDIT:
 
I forgot to say. It's not unusual for a female livebearer to die after giving birth. It can happen sadly. I would also go looking for the other one that has gone missing. If she has died she will be creating ammonia as her body decomposes and that only adds to your problems. Never leave a dead fish in your tank and always look for missing fish

 

[BeckyCats]

Hi JacCash! Welcome!
In addition to the excellent advice above, I will add that I learned that mollies, while often sold as "hardy" and "adaptable" are actually rather particular about water parameters. They need hard water. Mine is very soft and through ignorance, tried to keep a molly. After a few months, she developed shimmies so I gave her to someone with harder water and apparently she is fine now. I mention this just in case you have soft water, you may want to reconsider whether mollies are good for your water. If you do have the right kind of water for them, then disregard the previous comment. 

 

 

[Munroco]

Balloon mollies are bred to be misshapen. I have no idea how that affects them internally but I can only imagine it isn't good for them. Processes like giving birth might be compromised. Why people purposely breed deformed fish is beyond me. I would also imagine there is a lot of inbreeding involved too so the chances of having long lived healthy fish are slim indeed. This is one of my pet hates as you may have guessed but I hope if you buy more mollies (for which you need a bigger tank) you go with the natural shaped ones.

 

[JacCash]

THANK YOU, GUYS!!! You're just the best!! This advise is great, and more importantly, so appreciated!!
 

Baccus
Baccus, thank you so much for taking the time to type out all the instructions and advice; so wonderful! I went and bought the  API Masterkit today ( figured it was worth the money, especially with my tank issues! ). I was given " cycle" which is to control the nitrate and nitrite in the tank. I was already putting in my water conditioner with my water changes, which I was told had  chlorine/ chloramine remover in it ( will double check this when I go home). 
 
 

Munroco
 
Munroco, thank you for all your information on Mollys; I was quite blind to the background of them. I appreciate the information provided and already have a friend taking 2 of the fry in hopes that they wont be breeding with each other. Appriciate the feed back; thank you. 
 
Based on all the information, I am thinking my best bet right now is to try and continue to cycle my tank, but in the mean time, set up my 20 gallon on a chemical cycle, and as soon as it is good to go, transfer the fish and fry; is that right? My Nitrate is still very high today, even with my one a day, two today, water changes.
 
Thanks again for all your help,

 

[Akasha72]

are you still adding this 'cycle' stuff?  I've not heard of it but I'm wondering if it actually contains Nitrates and this where the high reading is coming from. Alternately it could be coming from your tap water so it's a good idea to test the tap water too 

 

[JacCash]

Akasha72
Hi, Akasha72! Thanks for all your help! The chemical is Nutrafin cycle chemicle and it is form my nitrate and nitrite in my tank. Right now, my nitrate is good, and my ammonia is 0. It is my nitrate that seems to not be coming down, even with daily water changes. I will re-test tonight again and hope for better results. I bought the API master test kit yesterday ( I figured I just needed to invest in a good kit). I did test my tap water last night, and it was light blue for nitrite which means it is perfect. SO I am hoping my water changes are going to help me soon! I am open to any other ideas or tips you may have to help get my nitrite down in my tank as I still have the baby fry in there, too! I do have 2 live plants that have been in there since day 1 on cycling my tank.
 
In the mean time, I am cycling my 20 gallon tank chemically. 
 
Thanks so much!!!! 
Also, I am sorry... I just figured out how to reply to a multi-quote..... haha... still learning this site! Bare with me! 

 

[Akasha72]

no problem ... we're well used to people new to the site and we know it takes a while to figure things out. I've been here years, on and off, and there still some stuff I can't do but that's more to do with technophobia! lol
 
Anyway, we're getting mixed up with nitrIte and nitrAte here so can you post the readings for both and for the tank and the tap please. That way I can see what could be going on here.
 
If it's NitrIte that's reading high that's a cycling issue and can be brought under control with the daily water changes.
 
If it's NitrAte ... that's a different issue as that is the end process of the cycle. Once you get NitrAte readings it's a sign your cycled. BUT NitrAte can be present in tap water and so it can confuse things.
 
Happy to help where I can so when you get chance to post those readings we'll see if we can sort it out

 

[JacCash]

Okay, THANK YOU!!!!! 
 

If it's NitrIte that's reading high that's a cycling issue and can be brought under control with the daily water changes.
 
If it's NitrAte ... that's a different issue as that is the end process of the cycle. Once you get NitrAte readings it's a sign your cycled. BUT NitrAte can be present in tap water and so it can confuse things.
 
 

 
So my NitrAte is good. 5.0 PP, so it isn't too bad. My nitrIte, which was 0 ( according to the pet store 3 days before my fish had fry), and now it is 5.0 PPMs..... So literally almost off the charts. I am on day three of water changes. I will re-test when I get home tonight, but so far it hasn't changed in the last 2 days. 

 

[Akasha72]

Just to clarify (cos I'm worried your getting confused)
 
Ammonia needs to be zero as Ammonia is toxic and will kill your fish. Bacteria grows in the filter (and small amounts on other surfaces too) that 'eats' the Ammonia and converts it to NitrIte. NitrIte is also toxic and will kill fish. A second type of Bacteria grows in the filter to 'eat' the NitrIte and convert it to NitrAte.
 
NitrAte is far less toxic and if you have live plants it will be used by the plants as food. There is some debate on what level is 'safe' for NitrAte but in general if you keep it between 20 and 40ppm it'll be fine. Once you see a NitrAte reading it's generally a sign that the tank is starting to cycle - but - some members have Nitrate readings in their tap water and that can confuse things. You can also get levels of Nitrate in certain plant fertilizers etc which is why I was asking about the 'cycle' product you've been using. 
 
It may be that this product has Nitrate in it and it may be that you have Nitrate in your tap and so if you are getting reading for NitrAte but still getting readings for NitrIte then I'd be looking to see where the NitrAte is coming from because it's unlikely to be coming from bacteria
 
Does that make sense?  

 

[JacCash]

Just to clarify (cos I'm worried your getting confused)
 
Ammonia needs to be zero as Ammonia is toxic and will kill your fish. Bacteria grows in the filter (and small amounts on other surfaces too) that 'eats' the Ammonia and converts it to NitrIte. NitrIte is also toxic and will kill fish. A second type of Bacteria grows in the filter to 'eat' the NitrIte and convert it to NitrAte.
 
NitrAte is far less toxic and if you have live plants it will be used by the plants as food. There is some debate on what level is 'safe' for NitrAte but in general if you keep it between 20 and 40ppm it'll be fine. Once you see a NitrAte reading it's generally a sign that the tank is starting to cycle - but - some members have Nitrate readings in their tap water and that can confuse things. You can also get levels of Nitrate in certain plant fertilizers etc which is why I was asking about the 'cycle' product you've been using. 
 
It may be that this product has Nitrate in it and it may be that you have Nitrate in your tap and so if you are getting reading for NitrAte but still getting readings for NitrIte then I'd be looking to see where the NitrAte is coming from because it's unlikely to be coming from bacteria
 
Does that make sense?  

Okay, SO, my ammonia is at 0. And has tested at 0 for the last 5 days. But,  if my Nitrite is high, then it might be because my chemical or my tap what consists of a high nitrate? So I should be checking my tap water and the bottle for nitrate? I have only tested my tap water for nitrite so far, but like I said, I do have the kit at home. 
 
I will post a picture of my test results from last night to clarify. 
Here is my tests from last night... 

 

[Akasha72]

again, you've got NITRITE and NITRATE mixed up - they different things.
 
The cycle is AMMONIA -NITRITE- then NITRATE. 
 
It is possible that your source water contains ALL of these three which is why I suggested running a test for ALL THREE on your tap water AND the tank. That way we can see what you are dealing with.
 
For the sake of sorting this for you please can you run off a test for ALL THREE on your TAP and add a photo with a caption above so we can see it is TAP
 
Then can you run off a test for ALL THREE on your TANK and then add a photo of the result with a caption so we know it's for the TANK
 
With regard to the 'cycle' product ... just have a read on the bottle of it's ingredients. It may tell you what it contains. 

 

[JacCash]

Okay! Sounds good! I will do that when I get home! The light blue Nitrite on top is my tap water, but I only thought to test the nitrite. 

 

[Akasha72]

okay ... when you do your tests - on both tank and tap. Please can you put the test tubes against a white background. I can not tell by you photo what colour they are against a dark background