My Fish Less Cycle

[eaglesaquarium]

The easiest thing to do if you are not feeling great is to just dose once a day and leave it at that.

The nitrite clearing is a good sign. There is no real "critical" stage of a cycle. Just keep dosing and let the bacteria take care of the rest. ;-) This is just another example of why fishless cycling is so much better than fish-in. Doing a fish-in, you'd be stuck NEEDING to do the water changes. You chose a fishless, and worst case scenario, you don't dose and the bacteria just hang out for a few days while you get back on your feet. Honestly, its nothing to stress over. The bacs will be fine without ammonia for a little if you need to rest up. Another option is to just add a pinch of fish food and it will slowly break down and add ammonia while you are unable to dose it.


I hope you feel better soon. If you find that you did go a few rounds with Mike Tyson, make sure both ears are intact. ;-)

 

[David J]

Hi

Thankfully what I thought might be flu hasn't come to anything. Just REALLY tired most of the time. Both ears fully intact lol .

Here's what's been happening over the last 2 days:

13/1 (8pm) Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 5ppm. Added Ammonia to 4ppm.
14/1 (8am): Ammonia: 0.50ppm, added 1.5 should be about 4ppm.
14/1: (8pm): Ammonia 1.0ppm. Added nothing.

I will test tomorrow at 8am and add Ammonia back upto about 4ppm and will test again 12 hours later.

Interestingly, I may have found why the Nitrate appear to be dropping even although I haven't done a water change since starting the cycle. I read on another forum that when using the API test and Nitrates get higher and higher as the cycle moves on, the reading will initially rise, as mine did, but when the levels get really high, for some reason the test kit can't read it and instead it gives a false reading as if they are getting lower. The guy that was explaining was explaining to someone that if you are getting unexplained low readings you should dilute a sample x 2 and test again and it will then bizarrely show a higher reading. He said you can continue to dilute accordingly until you get a realistic result.

Not sure if this is correct. I wasn't chatting on the thread but some people tried what he suggested and it worked but didn't for others. Personally, I think I won't worry about nitrates until I am fully cycled and then, regardless of any test results, I will definitely be doing a big water change.

What do ou think?

David

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Good idea.

 

[David J]

Hi

I'm not too happy with the way things are going. Maybe I'm being impatient. Here is a recap of the last few days and today's results at the end.

10/1: Ammonia: 0-0.25ppm, Nitrite: 0, added: 2ml, 2nd test after adding Ammonia: 2.0ppm.

11/1: No 1st test, added ammonia to 2ppm.

12/1: (7pm): Ammonia 0.50ppm, nitrite: 0, Added ammonia to 1-2ppm.

13/1: (8pm): Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Added Ammonia to 4ppm.

14/1: (8am): Ammonia: 0.50ppm, added 1.5 should be about 4ppm.
14/1: (8pm): Ammonia 1.0ppm.

15/1 (8am): Ammonia: 0.50ppm, Added ammonia. 2nd test: Ammonia: still 0.50ppm, maybe slightly darker/more.
15/1: (8pm): Tested: Ammonia 0.25ppm, Nitrite 0, Added: 2, 2nd test: Ammonia: 5-6ppm.

When i added ammonia this mornng, the 2nd test showed the ammonia level about the same as the 1st test. Over the last 12 hours the ammonia has only dropped by 0.25ppm. I am concerned that maybe I've not been dosing the correct amounts. I never seem to be able to get it where I want ie about 3.0ppm. The syringe I use to dose is one that originally came from the vet and there is a scale on the side measured in 'kg' but I don't know what that is. Surely it can't be kilograms!

Anyway, looking back over the last few days how do you think things are going?

Thanks,

David

 

[eaglesaquarium]

One thing you haven't shown is your pH or nitrate. Can you test the pH?

 

[David J]

Hi

I took the nitrate results out but have them. I didn't think they were too important. I will edit my previous post in a minute to add the nitrate.

My water supply showed a pH of 7.6-7.8 although I have since learnt I should've let the water lie for 24 hours before testing. I will do this tomorrow and report back. The first pH test I ever did on the tank water came back at 6.8. At the moment I have 2 pieces of bogwood and a couple of amethyst rocks in there. I will test the tank water again and post the result along with the results for my water supply in the next day or so.

I'll go update my previous post now. Do you have any ideas on how things might be going?

Thanks again

David


It seems I can only edit my last post so here are the nitrate results for each day:


10/1: 10-20ppm,
11/1: no test
12/1: 10-20ppm.
13/1 5ppm.
14/1: no nitrate test
15/1: no nitrate test

I didn't test nitrate the last couple of days because I thought it wasn't too important at this stage plus the fact that they were apparently dropping and given what I read elsewhere about false low readings because when they get too high the API test can't read it and a false low result is shown.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The nitrate not rising much is strange... I'd suggest diluting it to 1mL of tank water and 4 ml of tap water. Then multiply your result by 5.


The pH is probably the primary issue you have right now. 6.8 is great for fish, but it's not exactly the optimum level for the bacteria to grow, and adding more nitrate through the cycling process, as well as the bogwood may have led to a pH crash, which would mean that your pH has dropped dramatically from all the acids (nitric acid from nitrate and tannic acid from the bogwood) entering the water.

The easy way to combat this is by adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the tank. This will raise your pH and your kH which will keep the pH more stable. The only danger in doing this is that you will need to do a full water change at the end of the cycle (which you will need to do anyway) but the lower pH when refilling may cause the bacteria to work less efficiently, so you wouldn't be quite as cycled as you think. Meaning, at the higher pH, the bacteria may be able to turn over 4-5ppm daily, but at a significantly lower pH, you might only turn over 2ppm or so. You have two options... one would be to continue cycling at the new pH and watch for drops again, and build the colony's strength a bit more. The other option would be to just start with a smaller initial stocking and slowly raise the level to where you ultimately want it to be.


Adding baking soda - 1 tsp per 5G would be a good start, and test the pH. You should aim to raise the level to 8.2-8.4, which means you only need to use the HIGH PH test, which won't get much use anyway, in your set-up, so test as much as you need to. ;-) That solution will be useless otherwise. Wait about a half hour after dosing the baking soda before testing. (You can't really overdose it, but adding a lot will raise the sodium levels... you'll need to keep the sodium VERY low ultimately, if you plan to keep scaleless fish (like cories, loaches, etc.). Just doing a 100% water change at the end TWICE would be my recommendation.

 

[David J]

The pH is probably the primary issue you have right now. 6.8 is great for fish, but it's not exactly the optimum level for the bacteria to grow, and adding more nitrate through the cycling process, as well as the bogwood may have led to a pH crash, which would mean that your pH has dropped dramatically from all the acids (nitric acid from nitrate and tannic acid from the bogwood) entering the water.

The easy way to combat this is by adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the tank. This will raise your pH and your kH which will keep the pH more stable. The only danger in doing this is that you will need to do a full water change at the end of the cycle (which you will need to do anyway) but the lower pH when refilling may cause the bacteria to work less efficiently, so you wouldn't be quite as cycled as you think. Meaning, at the higher pH, the bacteria may be able to turn over 4-5ppm daily, but at a significantly lower pH, you might only turn over 2ppm or so. You have two options... one would be to continue cycling at the new pH and watch for drops again, and build the colony's strength a bit more. The other option would be to just start with a smaller initial stocking and slowly raise the level to where you ultimately want it to be.

Hi

Thanks for the info. I will test the pH levels tonight. FYI, i am intending on stocking gradually, one type of fish at a time, probably starting with around 10 Lemon Tetra's. I was thinking once i've added fish i will test daily for everything, including pH and if all is ok after one week I was thinking I would look to add the next type of fish and repeat the process. I really don't want to add all the fish at once.

I tested this morning for ammonia only (due to running late for work) and the result was about 0.50ppm-1.0ppm. 12 hours previous I had added ammonia and tested it to be around 5-6ppm. The colours are hard to read. It was DEFINATELY darker than 4ppm but not as dark as 8ppm so made a judgement of it being at least 5-6ppm. This means that in a 12 hour period at least 4ppm has been processed which can only be a good thing. I had intended only dosing to about 4.0ppm but got the dose wrong again. Therefore, if I had only dosed to 4.0ppm, the reading this morning would've been zero.

As I said a couple of posts ago, I am unconvinced that I am dosing the ammonia correctly due to the 'Kg' scale on the syringe I use. I have tried to find info online about this measurement and it does indeed seem to relate to the weight of liquid but different liquids will have different weights I guess so not sure how to convert the ammonia into ml. I am going to see about getting a new syringe from the chemist with ml instead.

So, to recap;

I will test pH tonight but with at least 4ppm of ammonia having been processed over a 12 hour period, I am happy that the bacteria haven't gone dormant. If they are indeed processing 4ppm in 12 hours, am I cycled? Also, considering that I will be stocking gradually, would I be safe to go? (after water change, adding plants and decor etc).

Thanks

David

 

[eaglesaquarium]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

I would say that until you have the nitrite also coming down to zero in 12 hours, you are close, but not quite there. (As far as a new syringe, just start keeping track of what ppm you get for whatever dose you give, and you can calibrate the syringe for yourself. If reading "x" provides 2ppm, and reading 2x provides 6ppm, you know that to get 4ppm just use 1.5*x.)


A 90L tank is about 24 gallons, so you are looking at about 24 inches of fish. You can push that a little higher with more filtration, live plants and more frequent and larger water changes. The Lemons (Great choice by the way - very nice looking and very hardy.) will be about 20 inches of fish (when adults), so that's actually a very high stocking level for the tank on the first shot. I'd consider only going with 6 or 7 and see how that goes, you can always add to their number later.

What other fish are you looking at besides the lemons? What's your substrate?


Also, I might space out your additions to about 2 weeks in between additions, it gives the bacteria a chance to do what they do without putting to much stress on them. Plus it adds to the time for adding new fish, which is always exciting! [/background]

 

[David J]

Hi Eagle

I was chatting with another member, MBOU, on another thread and discussing ideas for stocking and they said the following:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:47 PM
MBOU, on 02 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:
As for stocking... stocking if you had an external would be far better than if you had an internal...

Internal:

2 x Dwarf Gourami (4 will certainly result in an all out war between gouramis, dwarves arent the friendliest species).
10 x Neon Tetra
6 x Pygmy cory
10 x Cherry shrimp (take up very little space and produce less waste than most fish)
6-10 x .... (any of the following)

-Black Phantom Tetras
-Red Phantom Tetras
-White Fin Bentosi Tetras
-Bloodfin Tetras
-Harlequins (normal, copper or hengeli)
-Lemon Tetras
-Beckfords Pencilfish
-Black Neons
-Emperor Tetras (purple emperors)
-Emerald Eye Rasbora
-Rice Fish
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the advice given on that thread I had pretty much decided on:

Plants:

Jungle val (Vallisneria americana (gigantea)
Anubias barteri var. angustifolia
Java moss - Taxiphyllum barbieri (Vesicularia)
Frog bit - Limnobium laevigatum
Cryptocyrene.
Maybe a moss ball or 2.

My short list for fish is as follows:

Neon or Cardinal tetra X 10
Pygmy cory X 6
Dwarf Gourami x 2
10 x lemon tetra
Crystal red shrimp or Cherry Shrimp x 10
Bristlenose Pleco (poss albino) x 1
Assassin Snails x 2

I have sand BTW. Nothing is set in stone of course but I was hoping to get the above and felt quite confident that it would be ok as MBOU seems very experienced, much more so than me.

What do you reckon? I'll be testing soon and will post back later

Thanks

David

 

[eaglesaquarium]

MBOU is quite good. I don't want to go against anything she says, but my concern is that the tank seems a bit small for that many fish. Personally, I wouldn't do it as a beginner, but that's me.


I agree with her regarding the external, as this would actually INCREASE the volume of the water, rather than an internal that would actually DECREASE the volume of the tank.


Sand is a great substrate for cories, and works for plecos as well. BUT, a BN pleco will produce a fair amount of waste, compared to more shrimp. So, they are a HEAVY bioload fish, whereas the snails or shrimp don't add nearly as much.


Am I correct in the fact that your tank is 90L (roughly 24 G)? If so, I would stay with a more conservative stocking:
6-7 Neons (cardinals get bigger than neons)
6-7 cories (dwarfs only - pandas would be the biggest I'd consider)
2 Dwarf Gourami (I'd stick with Honeys, rather than "Dwarf")
6-7 Lemon tetra
10 cherry shrimp
Clown pleco (is a bit smaller than the BN).


Why the Assassin snails? Are you expecting a snail problem?


That's my take. 90L seems a bit too small for that many fish... I suppose you COULD get to that level of stocking in the end, but I would start with 6 of each shoaling fish, rather than 10 to begin with... The key is that its easier to add fish to the tank, than to take them away. ;-) Start small and slowly build up. You'll get a feel for it as it goes, and if you are building one type of fish at a time, eventually you CAN overstock your tank safely, because you'll learn what to watch for - in terms of water chemistry. If you do two water changes a week of sizeable portion (30%+) then you should be fine with the full stocking you list... But I'd keep in mind that its best to start small...

6 Lemons to start and build from there... that would be my advice. Ultimately though, its your tank. You have to be the final decision maker, especially since you are the one that will be looking at it and taking care of it.


Folks would say that my tank is overstocked as well, based on the 1 inch per gallon rule... But, I slowly built it up to the level it is right now, the plants are growing in nicely, and I have a pretty aggressive water change schedule... Sometimes I'll change the water just because I'm bored (or want some quiet time to myself). My wife and son never bother me when I am "playing" with the fish.

 

[David J]

Hi

Thanks for your opinions. It's good to get a few takes on it. I'm about to go out for a few hours and will re-read your post and consider things later tonight. You are correct that my tank is 90L (UK). Not sure if litres differ between UK and US.

In the meantime, here are tonight's test results.

16/1 (8pm):

Ammonia: 0,
Nitrite: 0,
Nitrate: 0 (suspect a false reading as per previous posts).
pH 7.6-7.8

I'm about to dose the ammonia and will attempt to get it to around 3-4ppm. I'm keeping notes on the levels on the syringe vs the subsequent test.

Thanks,

David.

 

[David J]

Hi again,

I've had a think about the stocking.

First of all, I am hoping to stock to maybe half my list and then change to an external filter before adding anymore stock. Hopefully this will mean that I can still stock to the levels I was hoping for and not be overstocked???

I'll have a think about the BN Pleco. I've been chopping and changing my mind regarding dwarf vs honey gouramis. I would love both but if I can only have one type I think I'd like to try the dwarf. The colours are amazing and think I just have to draw a line under it and say dwarf otherwise I'll never make up my mind.

I take your point about it being easier to add more fish than it is to take them away and think I will reduce my numbers initially, especially because as you say, I am a beginner. I have to respect that fact and remind myself I am dealing with living creatures, not just a hobby.

I had thought about the assassins because I heard that most people will get hitch hiking snails into their tank via live plants and I am about to start planting. I guess I could just wait and see if I actually do get a problem and then consider adding them later. I was also looking at the horned nerite snail just because they are so unusual so we'll see.

I managed a dose the ammonia tonight to 2.0-3-0 ppm which I'm quite happy with. Assuming that it drops to zero by morning I'll increase it slightly to get at least 3.0ppm for the next 24 hours. I am really hoping that ammonia and nitrite will be zero in the morning. I have a good feeling.

What do you think about my pH? I think it's ok for cycling but worried it might be too high for fish? I have soft water. Any idea?

Thanks

David

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Your pH is fine. The key is to have a good static pH. You may not get breeding from some of the fish, but that's not a concern since you are looking at a full stocking. Adding some driftwood can lower the pH a bit (and slowly) if you are concerned about it.


I got some snails when I planted. When I got a BN pleco, it eliminated the snails - either outcompeted them for algae, or ate their eggs, or both.

As far as the dwarf gouramis go, be sure to get a male and female. I had a male dwarf and got a second and they started fighting immediately, so I had to return the 2nd one. Dwarf gouramis also have a higher potential for disease, I think less so with honeys.

 

[David J]

Hi

Frustratingly, I have the first result showing nitrite for ages this morning and a little ammonia too.

17/1

Ammonia: 0.50ppm
Nitrite: 0.50ppm

Why all of a sudden is the nitrite not zero? It's been zero for over a week I think. Even after dosing higher amounts than I did last night the nitrite would still be zero.

Ill see what it's like tonight but I was really hoping for a good result this morning.

Thanks

David