Is My Tank Cycling? Noob To The Hobby - I've Also Read The "re

[marnold00]

 
Hopefully once op gets a half decent test kit such as the API Master kit and start to give us more test readings, we can take things from there.

So I'm now £25.30 poorer (thank you LFS for the price match )

Ammonia between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrite somewhere between 2ppm and 5ppm
Nitrates at around 80ppm

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thats a good price from the LFS, its worth it.  Nice one.
 
The cycle does seem to be progressing nicely and on par with these readings.

 

[marnold00]

Bill and Ben are great

I'll just hold tight then and do daily tests. I won't bother with any more nitrate tests for now. I'll just wait until ammonia and nitrites are trace and then I'll be back

 

[Baccus]

I just wanted to add a way that I attach Anubias and other plants like java fern and bolbotis to timber or rocks, instead of cotton thread or string I use zip ties. I find them brillient because they come in all sorts of sizes and the tail end can be cut off flush leaving no obvious tie spots.
 
I know some people also use hot glue guns to attach plants but I have always been wary of adding anything that could disolve and release poisonous compounds into the tank.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I just wanted to add a way that I attach Anubias and other plants like java fern and bolbotis to timber or rocks, instead of cotton thread or string I use zip ties. I find them brillient because they come in all sorts of sizes and the tail end can be cut off flush leaving no obvious tie spots.
 
I know some people also use hot glue guns to attach plants but I have always been wary of adding anything that could disolve and release poisonous compounds into the tank.

 
Hot glue gun to glue plants onto wood/decor ....

 
Hmm, can't say am sure I like that idea at all. Like you say the substance of the glue could release toxic elements, though you could check if the glue is 100% cyanoacrylate safe.
 
The other factor is the heat of the glue could damage the roots/stem of the plant possibly.
 
But the cable ties (you call them zip ties, same thing) idea is a good idea, fast and simple to do, effective, much easier than trying to fumble around with thread or fishling line to attach the plants to the wood. Plastic won't really degrade in the water (unless left in there for decades or more ) and should be perfectly safe I reckon.
 
Think will try that next time

 

[marnold00]

I could just use wood glue right?

whilst I'm at it I will get on and nuke everything in bleach before going in the tank, fish included.

I joke. Please understand I'm joking. Joke.

Cable ties... Mega facepalm. I have like 200 of these things. Thank you! I'll do that to one of them.
 
 
I'm still massively undecided on what to stock the tank with High but stable pH, moderate to hard water. COULD go LFS RO mineralised water and do a big change after cycling.
 
65l tank (i've been stupid over this. assumed it was 60l because it had 60 in the name. 60 refers to how wide it is.. 60cm)... then I thought it was 80 because I measured it whilst half asleep. not I know its 65l...
 
Not big I know. 
 
I want a shoaling fish, a centrepiece style fish (even if it's like 3 guppies) and not millions of babies.
 
Currently aware of Danios (zebra, leopard, glowlight and dwarves), white cloud minnows, livebearers. No idea what could be a centrepiece in hard water.... By this I mean something like a dwarf/honey gourami, a bolivian ram, or whatever - obviously not what i've just said because they like soft water *sobs*

 

[Ch4rlie]

ah, easy mistake to make re the tank size, a standard 2 feet by 1 feet width and 1 feet tank is abotu 60 litres, or 15 gals US.
 
As for fish suitable for your tank, there are a few options, rainbowfish perhaps.
 
I have similar sort of water as you have, i have kept Threadfin Rainbowfish, and currently in a 30 inch length tank have Emerald Danios and Sawbas respenden with shrimps and assassin snails. makes for a fairly nice tank. the 3 foot tank, i have lambchop rasboras, celestial pearl danios and endlers, with red cherry shrimps, ramshorns snails all do fine in that water.
 
Just to give you an idea of what you could potentially have with your water parameters.

 

[marnold00]

brilliant thank you Threadfins are so glorious to look at, but have definitely got to wait until I'm more experienced. Definite food for thought though! My head is telling me to go with danios to start... they're nice and hardy and I'm bound to make mistakes - I just think they don't look particularly pretty

 

[Ch4rlie]

brilliant thank you

Threadfins are so glorious to look at, but have definitely got to wait until I'm more experienced. Definite food for thought though! My head is telling me to go with danios to start... they're nice and hardy and I'm bound to make mistakes - I just think they don't look particularly pretty

 

 
Emerald Danios are really lovely once they get settled and less skittish, the males will colour up to a lovely shade of blue

 
    
 
Note - These pictures are not by me, taken from the SF website.

 

[marnold00]

OK I stand corrected! Not noticed them in my LFS. definitely keeping my eye out for them

Come on tank bacteria. Have the same enthusiasm as me and hurry up stoopid nature

 

[Byron]

 

I would definitely not add any pure ammonia.  Ammonia is toxic to all life forms, including plants, and it is possible to kill off these plants with too much ammonia.  Once you have live plants in the tank, I would not add ammonia.

 
Quite interesting you take this sort of stance. Of course this varies between fishkeepers and their preferences which is no bad thing at all.
 
I have always cycled a tank with live plants AND using ammonia with no ill effects on the plants as far as I could see. I usually set up the tank with plants and substrate etc, leave for 2 weeks to let plants settle, then start the cycling process by testing and adding ammonia to the required amount.

 
The problem for me is the risk.  This is another area where it is so easy to overdose ammonia, which can kill plants, bacteria...not worth it really.  Aside from this, high ammonia does affect the second stage of nitrification, and at not very hgih levels can inhibit and even kill the Nitrospira bacteria.  When the live plants method is so easy and safe, I tend to think it the better option.
 
Live plants are faster at taking up ammonia/ammonium than bacteria, according to test studies.  So once you have established the nitrifying bacteria, it is not going to have "food" once the ammonia stops.  Some would argue that it will compete with the plants, and there is test evidence this occurs.  Which is why biological filtration is unnecessary in planted tanks.  Obviously nitrifying bacteria will appear and be present, regardless.  I see no value in trying to over-encourage this at the risk to plants and bacteria.

 

[Baccus]

The other thing I forget to mention with using zip ties (cable ties) is that once the plant naturally attaches to what ever you had it tied to you can usually then remove the zip ties. It might take a few months to be certain the plant is well attached by its own roots, but worth it in the end. It is also possible to make "trees" with your attached plants if the wood is a branch with different lengths, just stagger the heights off the plants your attaching.
One thing I have learnt that almost no plant (except pest algae) will attach to is anything plastic, so any plastic ornaments live plants just wont cling to, but put them on natural things like rock and logs and watch them thrive.
 
This anubius has only fairly recently been attached to this piece of timber, you should be able to see the zip tie.

 
 
This anubius has been attached to the rock for ages now and no longer needed its zip tie.

 
The only thing I would warn about using zip tie (cable ties) is don't do the tie up so tight that you squeeze the stem of the plant to death or damage it. Only do the zip tie up tight enough to stablise and secure the plant where you want it. Just remember to be creative and artistic, have fun with your plant attachments.
 
As for stocking your tank, the size/ volume of the tank will be your main issues, active shoalers need room to move while larger sedate fish could just end up too big in the long run. A group of around 5 male (and ONLY male) guppies can look very nice and they will still be very interactive with each other although you will see at least one male that will end up being bullied by the other males. That is just natural heirachy behaviour and would be a hundred times worse if females where present. Another option and generally slightly smaller is Endlers. I fell in love with blackbar endlers the first time I saw them, the electric colours where amazing. It can be hard to find pure endlers since they hybridise readily with guppies, but once again a group of 5 or 7 males would be very pretty.
I see threadfin rainbows have been suggested, and a stunning fish they are, but there are small species of Blue Eye that are suited to hard water too and they could also be well worth keeping an eye out for.
I have seen where Siamese Fighters have been suggested for hard water ( I have always considered them more soft acidic with plenty of tannins) a soriety of females may work for you in the tank. I kept a soriety of females at one point and they did not disappoint and just as beautiful and full of character as their male counter parts.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I would definitely not add any pure ammonia.  Ammonia is toxic to all life forms, including plants, and it is possible to kill off these plants with too much ammonia.  Once you have live plants in the tank, I would not add ammonia.

 
Quite interesting you take this sort of stance. Of course this varies between fishkeepers and their preferences which is no bad thing at all.
 
I have always cycled a tank with live plants AND using ammonia with no ill effects on the plants as far as I could see. I usually set up the tank with plants and substrate etc, leave for 2 weeks to let plants settle, then start the cycling process by testing and adding ammonia to the required amount.

 
The problem for me is the risk.  This is another area where it is so easy to overdose ammonia, which can kill plants, bacteria...not worth it really.  Aside from this, high ammonia does affect the second stage of nitrification, and at not very hgih levels can inhibit and even kill the Nitrospira bacteria.  When the live plants method is so easy and safe, I tend to think it the better option.
 
Live plants are faster at taking up ammonia/ammonium than bacteria, according to test studies.  So once you have established the nitrifying bacteria, it is not going to have "food" once the ammonia stops.  Some would argue that it will compete with the plants, and there is test evidence this occurs.  Which is why biological filtration is unnecessary in planted tanks.  Obviously nitrifying bacteria will appear and be present, regardless.  I see no value in trying to over-encourage this at the risk to plants and bacteria.

Your stance is a hard line here, Byron. I respect that this is your opinion, but do not agree with the degree to which you take it. The term "planted" tank is where this needs some degree of leniency. First, how planted does a planted tank have to be in order for this to be used most effectively? The general recommendation that I've seen for a silent cycle as you are describing here has always been up to as high as 75% of the substrate be planted and normally with fast growing plants. (Granted floating plants are also useful in this regard.) And generally, speaking I've never heard of a new hobbyists planting their new tank to anything even close to that regard. Second, the priority, as you yourself claim, should be the fish and other animals in the tank.

If a new hobbyist considers their tank to be planted because they bought a pair of tiny anubias plants and put fish in right away, they would be asking for trouble. That amount of plant matter just won't be able to keep up with the bio load and the ammonia will build up becoming a danger to both the fish and the plants.

I do agree that caution be used when adding ammonia to a tank with plants in it during a cycle. The dose should smaller than the 3 ppm we recommend in our cycling article. The dose I use would be around 1 ppm. This is generally a small enough dose to be safe for all but the most sensitive plants, and those plants are generally not the ones being used by newer hobbyists. This gives the hobbyists a chance to see how much ammonia is being consumed by the plants, if tested after a day. If the ammonia is gone, then they can safely proceed with a small stocking of fish. If not, then they wait until that amount of ammonia can be processed in a day before proceeding with.

The possibility of overdose is always possible, as it would be with medication, etc. So, having a bit of practice calculating their dose for 1 ppm and measuring out some ammonia for this purpose is valuable experience as well. And IF they overdose the ammonia, the only thing lost (potentially) are some plants. These can easily be replaced at a cost of a few dollars, pounds, etc.

 

[Byron]

Generally agree, but I don't remember suggesting that lots of fish go in initially, quite the opposite.  This is a 20g tank (or was it 15g finally?) and with even a couple of floating plants, a couple of small fish are not going to have issues.  The ratio of fish to water volume is too great, plus the plants.
 

I do agree that caution be used when adding ammonia to a tank with plants in it during a cycle. The dose should smaller than the 3 ppm we recommend in our cycling article. The dose I use would be around 1 ppm. This is generally a small enough dose to be safe for all but the most sensitive plants, and those plants are generally not the ones being used by newer hobbyists. This gives the hobbyists a chance to see how much ammonia is being consumed by the plants, if tested after a day. If the ammonia is gone, then they can safely proceed with a small stocking of fish. If not, then they wait until that amount of ammonia can be processed in a day before proceeding with.
 

 
I'm not sure I follow the logic of adding "ammonia" to have it consumed by the plants, and then adding fish.  If the plants are going to consume the 1 ppm of ammonia, surely they would easily handle that produced by the fish (assuming just a few small fish).
 
I still feel the risk of adding any level of ammonia is one that can be avoided.  How many threads does this forum have with cycling problems using ammonia?  There is a lot that can go wrong especially for beginners, so this is not safer than tossing in a few floating plants.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Generally agree, but I don't remember suggesting that lots of fish go in initially, quite the opposite.  This is a 20g tank (or was it 15g finally?) and with even a couple of floating plants, a couple of small fish are not going to have issues.  The ratio of fish to water volume is too great, plus the plants.
 

I do agree that caution be used when adding ammonia to a tank with plants in it during a cycle. The dose should smaller than the 3 ppm we recommend in our cycling article. The dose I use would be around 1 ppm. This is generally a small enough dose to be safe for all but the most sensitive plants, and those plants are generally not the ones being used by newer hobbyists. This gives the hobbyists a chance to see how much ammonia is being consumed by the plants, if tested after a day. If the ammonia is gone, then they can safely proceed with a small stocking of fish. If not, then they wait until that amount of ammonia can be processed in a day before proceeding with.
 

 
I'm not sure I follow the logic of adding "ammonia" to have it consumed by the plants, and then adding fish.  If the plants are going to consume the 1 ppm of ammonia, surely they would easily handle that produced by the fish (assuming just a few small fish).
 
I still feel the risk of adding any level of ammonia is one that can be avoided.  How many threads does this forum have with cycling problems using ammonia?  There is a lot that can go wrong especially for beginners, so this is not safer than tossing in a few floating plants.

 
The logic is simple:  You know exactly how much ammonia is being processed BEFORE adding fish.  If the plants are consuming the 1ppm from the jump, GREAT.  If not, then the delay gives the bacteria a chance to grow, or the plants to grow to use more ammonia.
 

The answer to your second question: How many threads does this forum have with cycling problems using ammonia?  The answer is simple: Far less than we used to get for folks who were not using ammonia.  There is far less that can go wrong using ammonia and no fish than any other means of cycling.  In any cycle that hasn't been 'tested' with a dose of ammonia, the new person is guessing that they have the right amount of plants for their biomass - that their plants won't melt and increase the ammonia in the tank initially (like many crypts do when first added to a new tank).  
 
I believe that a silent cycle is a great tool for an experienced aquarist.  But, for someone new to the aquatic plant scene, new to the entire nitrogen cycle, and new to the fish world that it is just adding an additional layer of complexity.  There's nothing 'wrong' about it, but it is not how I would choose to direct a new fishkeeper.  There is much to be learned during a fishless cycle about the entire fishkeeping world, and it serves as a sort of 'timeout' for the new fishkeeper to increase their research and determine compatible species, proper stocking levels, etc. in addition to the inter-workings of the nitrogen cycle.  
 
That's my two cents.