Is my powerhead causing my fish to die?

[Aquatony]

Hi all.

Well, I had my first fish deaths today, and I can't help but wonder... is the Hydor powerhead causing too much current for them? All of my catfish from the 10 gallon have now died. my flame gourami has died (suddenly too, he was eating and swimming last night....) I've lost one cardinal from the 10 gallon. The two "new" catfish are not looking well, they're quite lethargic.

Remaining are a handful of Cardinals and a handfull of Raspboras... The two catfish "look" alive, but are just SO lethargic.
Parameters, I did a FULL test, with TWO different kits, Seachem and API... both came back very very similar with nothing seeming out of the oridinary. Keep in mind my water is VERY VERY soft with GH/KH numbers in the single digits and the pH buffering is therefore not the greatest.

pH = 6.0-6.2
GH =
KH =
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = 15 (heavily heavily planted and I run Nitra-Zorb in one of the filter backs)
Ammonia = 0 free and otherwise, full 0.0ppm

Filtration: Emperor 400, running two pretty new "E" size filters, and Nitra-sorb in the gray baskets, along with a bit of Aragonite to help (In hope) buffer the pH to a tolerable level.

I have a Hydor "Koralia Evolution 600" on the opposite side of the tank as the filter (visible in my photo I've posted) to help circulate water back to the filter side of the tank.

I worry that maybe the powerhead is introducing too much current for the fish to tolerate and they're just choosing to avoid it? The Raspboras seem to LOVE it, swimming into it intentionally then letting themselves be propelled away, like a child would on a ride.

Or is it something else? Last time i had a die-off, Byron and I narrowed it down to pH, and that's why I've added the aragonite to the tank already, but I dunno. Gouramis "should" be ok with 6.0 according to LiveAquaria anyway, it's a head scratcher.

I am very worried about my last 2 catfish. They aren't eating. They aren't gasping for air or glass surfing either, just kind of... being lethargic.

Please any advice I'm up for...

 

[Aquatony]

Side view of the tank... from L to R, Emperor 400 on the opposite side, heater + PH on this side

Lethargic cory cat #1... the pellets I dropped in, previously, he had been loving those things... of course I also fed "bottom feeder tablets" that my other Cories have eaten for a year and have loved and grown on.

Everything seems fine... I don't understand.

Oh, the tank is 36x18, 50 gallons.

 

[Byron]

While water current if strong can affect many fish--and all those mentioned here occur in relatively quiet waters--I wouldn't expect sudden deaths like you describe. I think we need to examine further afield. First, though, I will say that if fish are having to swim against a current continually, this can seriously impact the fish. They should be able to get out of the current. It takes a lot of energy to be swimming strongly permanently. I just throw that out, since I have no idea just how strong the flow is, or if the fish can avoid it completely. The behaviour you view as "play" may not be; fish naturally swim against currents as that is how they find food floating downstream. But if the flow is sufficient to sweep the rasbora away, it is too strong; rasbora occur in very quiet streams, as do gourami.

If I am reading you correctly,it sounds as if several fish have died today. If this is the case, I would look at water parameters and conditions (you seem to have tested most of these...is the temp normal?) and beyond that, consider some internal protozoan or pathogen. Any new fish recently?

If the pH is actually at 6.0 or close, that is not a problem for any of the fish mentioned, assuming it is stable and not fluctuating significantly.

Lethargic usually means water problems. How is the respiration rate?

Byron.

 

[StevenF]

It's extremely unlikely the flow is your problem. You mention that your water is extremely soft but don't list the GH and KH numbers. If you have a test kit with those numbers please list them. Are you using DI, RO, distilled or a mix of tap plus one of the others? What products do you add to your water water conditioner, fertilizers, and anything else. How often do you change your water and how much.

Also check for PH changes. Check the PH with your API kit in the early morning , mid day, and just before the lights turn off at the end of the day. Also what is the difference between the PH, GH, and KH of the tank water and the water added for a water change.

On many filters there is a flow adjustment knob. If you have that adjust it down. Or if possible Reposition the filter output so that the water drops a short distant down through the air before hitting the water surface. This might help reducing the flow and would help increase aeration of the water (just in case you don't have enough).

Everything seems fine... I don't understand.

Tap water can have between 20-50 elements dissolved in it depending on the water hardness and source. A large number of them can be dangerous at extremely low levels (not enough for the fish) or at extremely high levels. Copper, chlorine, iodine, phosphate and potassium arsenic, lead, and uranium are just the one that come to mind right now. 6 test result doesn't tell you much.

 

[Aquatony]

Let me see if I can hit all the spots here...
To start with I've gone ahead and turned off the PH. No big deal to start it up again but perhaps the fish could do with less current. I have the Emperor at roughly its lowest setting. The water surface is moved pretty well by the flow of the Biowheels into the tank, and there is a natural distance that the water is dropping, very little though, perhaps 1/2"?

I realize I left off GH and KH by accident. Woops. GH is 50-100 ppm according to API and KH is 0-50 ppm. This is "a little" harder than it comes from the tap. From the tap tested at 0-50 for both GH and KH using the same kit, with fresh vials (I invested in a 100 pack...)

I change 10 gallons of the water every week. I have a siphon kit made by Aqueon that I saw a lot of YouTubers use with great success. It sucks the water out of the tank right into my backyard. Then I temperature match the water with a digital thermometer, and after getting rid of all the old water in the tube, begin water transfer back to the tank. As water is put back in the tank I make sure to use Seachem PRIME with proper titration 1mL x 10 gal, 50 gallon worth (5mL, one teaspoon).

My last water change was Sunday, the fish died mostly today and had been ailing pretty bad since yesterday (Monday) so maybe it was the water change.

What happens to fish if you add too much Prime (or whatever conditioner/dechlorinator you choose)? Is there a point where you can add a lethal dose?

I will do a 3x pH during the day of my next day off which is Saturday. I will test morning noon and night to see if there are variations. Nothing I've got goes below 6.0 pH, it's just a yellow color, so it COULD be lower I guess as we went through last time. I bought a pretty expensive pH meter (I thought anyway but was told some of them are like $400, so obviously not that much) and it crapped out on me quickly. Before it died it was giving bizarre results like 3.8 pH, even though I had calibrated it in accordance with the manual.

I added an amount of aragonite consistent with proportions I added to the 10 gallon to see a pretty positive change in the 10 gallon. Fingers crossed.

As of tonight the two Panda cats are lethargic but alive. Their respiration is normal. Not labored, not fast, not super slow. Just normal. They refuse to eat even the best bottom feeder tablet I've got that they previously feasted upon. Maybe they need fresh vegetables, non GMO organic? lol... anyways The 6 Cardinals and 5 Raspboras (I want more of each of course but, not until this is sorted...) were in fine shape tonight and ate dinner without a hitch.

Oh, there is one Flourish tab in the sand right around the majority of the plants on the L side of the tank. Aside from that and the PRIME for the water change, I don't add anything else.

I am tempted to get an RO/DI system set up to make my own. Or at least, buy it and see if it helps, but at 10 gallons a change, my wife would probably just tell me to throw the tank out.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Byron]

The water surface disturbance should be adequate, and especially if you are not seeing any increase in respiration. My cories are about the best guide for me as to gas exchange; they show increased respiration and increased surface breaching when there is insufficient surface disturbance.

Don't put vegetables in for the cories; unless they are accustomed to eating these, they are highly unlikely to go for them over their normal sinking foods. They can go days without food anyway, so that is not an issue.

I have never had problems from Flourish Tabs. Just poke it down into the substrate. The API tabs are more likely to cause issues.

From the info, the water change seems to have brought on the deaths. This could mean there was something specific in the water, or it could mean there has been something building up and this pushed it over the edge. How are you preparing the replacement water? You seem to be mixing tap with something else...?

On the Prime, this is way too much, and yes, it does impact fish. Every substance added to the tank water will naturally get inside the fish, so opn that basis alone it is important to never add more of any additive that what is actually needed for the specific job. Water conditioner should only be added for the volume of replacement water, never more. If you are changing 10 gallons, then add conditioner for 10 gallons, no more.

I am not a fan of Prime, and I will not use it. It messes around with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, which means it has something in it doing this, and unless this is necessary it is best to avoid. The increase in TDS is another aspect of conditioners. Which brings me to the aragonite...is this new, or has it been consistent? It takes very, very little to raise pH.

Byron.

 

[StevenF]

I realize I left off GH and KH by accident. Woops. GH is 50-100 ppm according to API and KH is 0-50 ppm. This is "a little" harder than it comes from the tap. From the tap tested at 0-50 for both GH and KH using the same kit, with fresh vials (I invested in a 100 pack...)

Your tap is very soft but your tank is just soft. You GH and KH numbers are fine and cherry shrimp should do fine in this water if you want to add them. My tank is at very similar levels. As to glass vials I routinely after use fill and store them full with with My RO water over several years of use there has been zero minal buildup inside. You could do tha tsame with DI and distilled water. I also have 3 high quality glass syringes that are always filled with RO when stored. They still look and work like new.

I added an amount of aragonite consistent with proportions I added to the 10 gallon to see a pretty positive change in the 10 gallon. Fingers crossed.

if you put enough argonite in the water the PH should stabilize at a PH of 7.0 and will probably cause a minor increase in GH (it might go to from 50-100 to 60-110). I don't think your Gh or KH is an issue.

I change 10 gallons of the water every week. As water is put back in the tank I make sure to use Seachem PRIME with proper titration 1mL x 10 gal, 50 gallon worth (5mL, one teaspoon).

are you doing a 100% water change a week? That might be a bit much and since your GH and PH of the tap water will not match your what your fish are used to you could be shocking them once a week. I would recommend a 50% water change once a week. Most do 30 to 50% once a week. That should be less stressfull to the fish. The tank water will blend with tap rusulting in a smaller GH PH. change.

What happens to fish if you add too much Prime (or whatever conditioner/dechlorinator you choose)? Is there a point where you can add a lethal dose?

You will kill your fish (yes people have done it). If I read your statment correctly the recommended prime dosing is 1ml per 50gallons. So for a 10 gallons you should do about 0.2ml of prime. Do an immediate water change and cut it back to 0.2ml. This is not the worst case of overdosing I have seen but it is definitely not good.

 

[Aquatony]

Thanks again everyone for your continued help.

I checked my water tonight after work. pH still pretty acidic, doesn't look like it budged from 6.0-6.2, KH same, nitrite nitrate ammonia all good, big difference is in the GH... since adding Aragonite the GH is up quite a bit, at least another 100ppm.

For water change I do not change 100%. I change about 10 gallons, so 20%. I dosed the PRIME at the 50 gallon rate as some YouTubers have suggested because I'm using the Aqueon water changer to avoid using buckets trying to save my back. Tithra (green mountain goldfish) is a very successful aquarist, I have watched all her videos, and she has suggested this method. But maybe it's time to go back to lugging buckets...

Byron, I am not mixing the water with any other source of water, just the conditioner, as I've seen it done on YT videos, but might be doing it wrong. I make sure the water is temperature matched from the faucet to the tank, aside from that I don't do anything really.

Tonight the catfish look more energetic. Respiration looks normal still. I observed them for 15 minutes (so fun to watch the smaller fish dart around) and the surface breach was rare, I think once or twice maybe. Still not really eating but, they're definitely moving around more. I still have the powerhead off but I think it's more the water change. I probably misDOSED the PRIME and shocked them.

So far no more losses. I'm guessing you're all right that my water change style needs work. I should probably stop using the water exchanger thing and just lug buckets again. Unless someone else has better advice. Lol.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Essjay]

Prime's dose rate from here http://www.seachem.com/prime.php
5 ml per 50 gals new water. May be added to tank but better if added to water first. It then says that if adding to the tank the dose must be based on the whole tank.

With a 20% water change, this means you are supposed to add 5 times more Prime if using a hose than a bucket.


Why add so much more if you put the prime straight into the tank instead of adding it to the new water first?
I know that it used to be said on this forum that the reason for adding so much more when using a hose is because dechlorinator reacts with dissolved organics in the tank water which removes a lot of it so there might not be enough left to remove all the chlorine. http://www.fishforums.net/threads/de-chlorinator.351157/#post-2925950
Has this theory been proved or disproved since then?

 

[Byron]

Prime's dose rate from here http://www.seachem.com/prime.php
5 ml per 50 gals new water. May be added to tank but better if added to water first. It then says that if adding to the tank the dose must be based on the whole tank.

With a 20% water change, this means you are supposed to add 5 times more Prime if using a hose than a bucket.


Why add so much more if you put the prime straight into the tank instead of adding it to the new water first?
I know that it used to be said on this forum that the reason for adding so much more when using a hose is because dechlorinator reacts with dissolved organics in the tank water which removes a lot of it so there might not be enough left to remove all the chlorine. http://www.fishforums.net/threads/de-chlorinator.351157/#post-2925950
Has this theory been proved or disproved since then?

That is the only time I have seen that "reason" for adding more dechlorinator than what is actually needed. I don't buy it. I have always added sufficient for the volume changed, no more, and in 20 years I have never had issues from this that I can identify. I do know that a couple times I have forgotten the conditioner when refilling, and within minutes the fish tell me, as they will all be at the opposite end, near the surface. I just squirt in the conditioner if I see this, and within seconds they relax. So this tells me that there is chlorine in my water, the conditioner does detoxify it, and it is fast acting. I don't use Prime, never have as I don't like all the side effects, but with NovAqua and now API Tap Water, this works. And I know my tanks are full of organics.

Conditioner adds TDS, plus the chemicals. All these get inside the fish. There is no reason to be adding more of any additive than what is absolutely necessary. [Next sentence is a bit tounge in cheek, but not by much:] These people wanting us to use double the amount, or suggesting that "it cannot be overdosed," are more likely gaining financial benefit from the manufacturer for selling double the product.

Byron.

 

[Byron]

For water change I do not change 100%. I change about 10 gallons, so 20%. I dosed the PRIME at the 50 gallon rate as some YouTubers have suggested because I'm using the Aqueon water changer to avoid using buckets trying to save my back. Tithra (green mountain goldfish) is a very successful aquarist, I have watched all her videos, and she has suggested this method. But maybe it's time to go back to lugging buckets...

Byron, I am not mixing the water with any other source of water, just the conditioner, as I've seen it done on YT videos, but might be doing it wrong. I make sure the water is temperature matched from the faucet to the tank, aside from that I don't do anything really.

I asked about mixing the water because you mentioned getting an RO unit. This is pointless, as you have very soft water out of the tap, and provided there is not something in it like high nitrates or heavy metals there should be nothing wrong with the tap water. And it makes water changes and emergency water changes much easier.

There is no harm in using a water changer; I have a Python hooked up to my tap, as changing half the tank of my large tanks (70g, 90g, and former 115g) with buckets would be foolish. I use this for my smaller tanks too, except the 10g which is too easily overfilled, so the bucket for that one. But the 20g, 29g, 33g, 40g, 70g and 90g tanks are via the Python. As I note in my response to essjay, I add the conditioner to the tank after I start re-filling, sufficient for the volume changed only, and I have never had issues. Using double the necessary amount of any additive is not necessary and it is detrimental.

Byron.

 

[Essjay]

I should add that I use a bucket and add 2 drops API Tap Water Conditioner to each 2 gal bucketful of water (I can't lift anything heavier)

But the instructions say to add 1 drop for each gallon of aquarium water which, to my mind, is open to mis-interpretation.



I wonder how many other dechlorinator instructions are badly worded, resulting in overdosing.

 

[Aquatony]

OK, I think it's pretty well settled then, I overconditioned the water which led to fish stress and ultimately a couple of losses. I will add the conditioner to the tank before refilling and will also make sure it's only for the amount of water changed.

Nothing else really seems to make sense, so after having gone through everything with y'all, seems like this is it.

Thanks again I am going to take some time this weekend and do some big tank maintenance (scrub, plant trim) and get a few more Cories.

 

[StevenF]

For the bucket (100% water change) you would add 0.2ml (about 2 drops. If you add add it directly to the tank then the dose should be 0.2ml (100% water change).

However for a 50% water change the dose in the bucket would be 0.1ml. For the tank the does would be 0.2. That is a lot less than he stated earlier.

 

[Byron]

I should add that I use a bucket and add 2 drops API Tap Water Conditioner to each 2 gal bucketful of water (I can't lift anything heavier)

But the instructions say to add 1 drop for each gallon of aquarium water which, to my mind, is open to mis-interpretation.



I wonder how many other dechlorinator instructions are badly worded, resulting in overdosing.

I also use the API, and for the small tanks that I use a bucket with I too add one drop per gallon, so 2 drops for a 2 gallon bucket of fresh water. This tank has pygmy cories that spawn regularly and many fry grow up, and I grow out my Farlowella vitatta fry in this tank. I am certain I would see problems if the water conditioner was not sufficient, and I do have chlorine in the tap water, some days sufficient to be able to smell it. I change 5 gallons of water weekly, at one go, which is more than half the tank considering the deplacement of water by the substrate and wood.

Something occurred to me yesterday while I was on the train in to Vancouver, about the organics affecting the dechlorinator...there can be quite a lot of organics in tap water, which is why we see bacterial blooms in new tanks or after large water changes. The basic dose (like 1 drop per gallon) seems to do its thing. So the organics issue doesn't seem too probable.

Byron.