Interpret These Stats?

[ellena]

So, this is going to be a long one, get a cuppa!
2 tanks, aqua one horizon 60 with tetratec ex600, I'll call this m for main tank. And a betta trio, 32l, I'll call this b for betta.
I intended to set these up by cloning another filter to kick start the cycle and doing water changes as required.
Readings in the format ammonia, nitrites, using api liquid kit. Trace is that ammonia colour that's not definitely yellow, but not quite 0.25 either.
I'm feeding lightly, a small pinch of flake food once a day in m and 2-3 large bloodworms every other day per frog, and about 5 betta bio gold pellets a day per betta, or 3-4 bloodworms if they're left over on frog feeding days.
I'm using seachem prime, dosing approx 4 times, 1ml per 10l bucket of water changed.
This isn't a complete record, many water changes have happened in between!

I had 1 betta in b with some mature media for about a week, then-
Day 1 put mature media in both tanks, stocked m with 7 hengeli rasboras and b with 2 more bettas.
Day 2-12 0.25-0.5 nitrites in both tanks, water changes as required.
Day 13&14 0,0 in both tanks
Day 15 m 0.5, 0, 5-10 nitrates (same as tap water) b 0, 0, 5-10 So, suddenly ammonia in m, from nowhere.
Went to lfs to see if they'd give me some mature media. They gave me an entire sponge, so I thought it'd be a shame to have all those bacteria without the fish to support them, so I gambled and got the rest of the stock for m. 3 honey gouramis and 4 dwarf frogs. Also 3 amano shrimp for the betta tank.
Day 16&17 0,0 in both tanks, big
Day 18 the formally peaceful hengelis start darting at each other.
Day 19 0.25, 0 in both So ammonia's back in m and now ammonia from nowhere in b too
Day 26 m 0.5, 0 b 0.25, 0
Day 29 m trace,0 b 0.25, 0
Day 33 (today) m 0.5, 0 b trace, 0

So WTF basically? It was odd at first that the media was coping with the ammonia, but not nitrites, then I get another injection of mature bacteria from lfs, seems to be working and now it's like I have an uncycled tank.
Does the level of ammonia I'm getting suggest there's any bacterial activity at all, looking at the tank size and stocking? I haven't tested the nitrates again, I'm doing water changes that often, they haven't got chance to build up.
Aside from the darting of the hengelis, which has been ongoing since it started, everything appears well. Without the test kit, I wouldn't know there was anything wrong.
Are any of those filter start bacteria things worth a go? Is something killing my bacteria off?
I never put the carbon in the filter, so there was room for the extra mature media I added.
Tank has wood bought from wharf aquatics and an online place, seachem fluorite sand and live plants, which are growing well, so using some ammonia (?) The only other thing is 2 iron weights tied to the bottom of one piece of wood cos it wouldn't sink, even after weeks of soaking! Not sure when I added them.
Any insight and suggestions very gratefully received, thank you

 

[Gruntle]

I'm at a bit of a loss.  As far as I remember, a small amount (less than 0.5ppm) of ammonia for a short period isn't too harmful (provided it doesn't continue long term), and it seems your nitrites have always been zero, which for me is the thing I watch out most for, as it's more likely to indicate a problem.
 
Keep an eye on it, keep an eye on your fish behaviour, and I wouldn't add any more livestock until you're sure the problem has definitely gone away.  Best of luck.

 

[daizeUK]

As far as I remember, a small amount (less than 0.5ppm) of ammonia for a short period isn't too harmful (provided it doesn't continue long term)

 
The toxicity of ammonia also depends on your pH, our fish-in cycling guide explains how to manage this to get the tank cycled quickly: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
I'm sure you're using a suitable water conditioner but just wanted to raise it as a possible cause if you're not.
Are the iron weights tank safe?  I would be tempted to remove those just in case.

 

[ellena]

Thanks both of you Yes I'm using seachem, at a higher dose. I asked towards the start if the api kits measure total, including that neutralised by the seachem, or just what's left after the seachem's done its thing. Either way, it's not good.
I'll measure pH and have a look at the converter. Should it be from the tap, or from the tank to do a snapshot? Obviously ammonia is alkali, is it enough to change pH at these low concentrations?
The iron weights aren't fish related at all. This weekend, I'll take them off and see if the wood is ready to sink on its own yet...

 

[ellena]

With pH of 7.6 from tap and ammonia of 0.5 and temp of 26C, I'm at 0.0122 of NH3, which is reassuring, thanks for the link.
I'll check my actual pH at the weekend...

 

[daizeUK]

Should it be from the tap, or from the tank to do a snapshot? Obviously ammonia is alkali, is it enough to change pH at these low concentrations?

 
Best take the sample from the tank, just in case the pH is significantly different from the tap.  The biggest causes of pH difference are CO2 dissolved in your water supply, which artificially lowers the pH of your tap supply and then gases off in the tank, as well as some decorations in your tank especially any rocks.  
 
For example my tap pH is about 7.6, same as yours, but my tank pH is about 8.2 which makes any ammonia a serious cause of concern for me.
 
Seachem Prime will lock up some ammonia temporarily but I'm not sure if this shows up on an API kit or not.

 

[ellena]

Thank you Right, just done tests. pH shot below, I think it's 8?
So with 0.5 ammonia and temp of 26C, that gives 0.0295 NH3, so still below 0.05.
If I'm back at the start of a fish in cycle, this could be 8 weeks of water changes
I could try and cadge some more mature media from somewhere, but I seem to have killed what I've had already. And it's in both tanks, in b without the addition of anything new except the shrimps.

 

[misterpro]

Using Prime can give a false ammonia reading up to +/- 24 hours (I'm guessing if you overdose Prime for even longer?) after using it.  (Yes, API ammonia test kit measures NH3 & NH4)
Also quite a few people get an incorrect 0.25 ammonia reading with it.  (I don't)
 
I really wouldn't worry about it.  All your low ammonia reading are likely just false ones.
 
Is there a special reason why u use Prime at 4x the normal dose btw?  (I use ever so slightly over 1ml on each 50 Liter drum I use during water changes)

 

[ellena]

So prime can make it look likes there's ammonia when there is none? I'm over dosing because of the presence of ammonia. Before it showed up, I used 2ml in the 60l, slight overdose, but just because it's difficult to measure anything smaller.

 

[daizeUK]

My (possibly flawed) understanding is that Prime neutralises any chloramine in your tap supply by converting it to ammonia and also contains a mechanism to make that ammonia 'safe' by temporarily converting it to ammonium for a limited period which gives bacteria and plants sufficient time to process the ammonium before it reverts back to toxic ammonia.
 
So if your tap supply is high in chloramines, it's possible that these may be responsible for some false ammonia readings on your API kit... I would not expect them to produce readings as high as 0.5ppm though.  I forget the exact chemical conversion but as I recall the amount of ammonia you get from converting chloramines is generally nothing much to worry about.

 

[misterpro]

If you're still worried you could have a quick read of this topic over at Seachem themselves...
 
Seachem Prime and false positives
 
Btw, I'm by no means saying Prime is bad.  It's superb imho.  I also use it.  You just can't trust Nessler based test kits for anywhere between 24-48 hours after using it.