Ich Disaster #2

[mbpted]

I have a 30 gal tank that, up until recently, was thriving!

I had a school of 8 Blue Neon Tetras, 8 Harlequin Rasboras, 6 Rummy Nose Tetras, and a Bristle Nose Pleco.

Everything was going so well, and I felt the tank could handle it, I thought I could add a few more fish to bring even more color.

I added 3 more Blue Neons and three Fancy Guppies. They looked fine at the store, and I acclimated them and added them to the tank. All was well for about a week and a half when I noticed Ich on one of the Rummy Nose Tetras. This happened to me before, about a year and a half ago, and I wasn't equipped. I didn't have an adjustable thermometer, and I didn't have any medicine. I lost the entire tank. This time, I thought I was prepared. Only one fish seemed sick and I increased the temp slightly, and started medicating the water with an Ich treatment.

Within a week all the tetras and the guppies were dead. Two week later, the last of the Rasporas were gone.

I only have the Pleco left. It's been two weeks and he seems okay. No sign of Ich. He hides on the rocks and comes out to eat his cucumber slices as he normally does.

I've continued to do my weekly vacuum/water change. And the latest tests of the water shows the same as it has always been:
Ammonia = 0
PH = 7.8 (a bit high, but that's what comes out of the tap, and I have read that it's best to acclimate the fish than try to regulate the PH)
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5.0

So my question(s):

How soon before I can safely add new fish to the tank? Since it's been two weeks since the last death, and the Pleco has not shown any symptoms, I've stopped medicating the water. However, I thought I should wait until after the holiday's when all travel was done and I could monitor any new fish carefully. (that would be another 3 weeks)

If this happens again, how much effort should I make to try to save a sick fish? As I said, I only saw one sick Rummy Nose at first, the rest didn't show any sign of Ich infection at all. I'm wondering if the Ich medication did any good. I'm also wondering if I should have (choke) euthanized that sick fish the moment I saw the symptoms. Maybe it would have been better to simply remove him from the tank than lose all of them. On the other hand, with the exception of the Rasbora's who lasted a lot longer, the others went so fast, could they have been infected without showing the symptoms?

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Byron]

First off, it needs to be said that the sudden deaths of the fish may not have been due to ich itself, but something like an internal protozoan (no external signs except fish weaken and die) that arrived with the new fish. Quarantining new fish for at least five weeks really is the only way to avoid losing existing stock. I learned this the hard way, after losing half of my tank for the second time. I had been lucky for 20 years, but my luck ran out and I no longer risk it. I have subsequently lost fish in QT, but better that than infecting the display tanks.

Most reliable authorities now hold that Ich is always present in our tanks. The fish succumb when they are stressed, and of course stress can be caused by anything that disturbs the fish. Stress weakens their immune systems so other diseases may occur including ich. New fish frequently bring more active ich with them due to the stress of the store tank, netting, etc, which is why they tend to be the first to show it.

Another issue is the medication you used, which is not mentioned. Some of these can be seriously toxic to fish, regardless of what the manufacturer may say about "safe." Overdosing is easy to do...a 30 gallon tank for instance is not going to be holding 30 gallons of water, more likely 20, so medications have to be adjusted accordingly. But some are not good for all fish anyway...copper for instance is quite hard on soft water fish, here the tetras and rasbora. Salt would be safer, and in my experience more effective as well.

So, to answer your question about time to wait...keep in mind that whatever killed the fish may well still be present. The pleco may not succumb for any number of reasons, since we really don't know what the problem was. If you saw the ich spots increase to literally cover the fish, all of them that died, then ich was likely to blame; but otherwise, it could have been an internal protozoan (there are many) or the medication. Given this, I would certainly wait until January, and I would be inclined to feed the pleco with food treated with metronidazole. Taken internally with food, this is a highly effective treatment for protozoan. It will not harm the pleco, so there is no downside. I would do some major water changes (major being 75-80 % of the tank volume each WC) over several days.

Byron.

 

[FroFro]

To add on to what Byron already thoroughly explained, when you do start adding more stock to the tank you should do so slowly. Don't dump a load of fish in there all at once, it's better to do as Byron stated and start with a few, quarantine them, and introduce them to the tank. Once the first set of quarantined fish are doing well in the main tank you can then get your next set to quarantine. The weeks between quarantining/introducing these fish to the main tank will allow your bacteria colony to rebuild itself. You never stated if your removed your filter media to another container with tank water, fish medicine is known to kill beneficial bacteria and also fudge up your carbon (if you have any in your filter). Getting a ton of fish and then tossing them all in at the same time after quarantine may be too much of a bio-load for the bacteria to handle, and can then mess up your water parameters resulting in the need to restart the water cycle. Sorry you lost your fishies, but what medicine did you use exactly?

 

[mbpted]

Thank you both for the responses to my post.

To give more details:
The Ich medicine I used was "Ich Attack" by a company called Kordon. I followed the directions on the bottle. And yes, a little less for my 29gal tank because I have sand, rocks plants, and, of course, the fish. So I tried to compensate for the less volume.

I do a water change once a week - about 25% of the tank. I guess I can do more. Would that be just for the time being as I try to flush out whatever might still be in the water? Or is a 75% water change recommended as a regular thing. It seems rather extreme.

When I change the water I always add a table spoon of salt. Should I do more?

Unfortunately, I don't have a quarantine tank. I don't have the space for it, so my tank and situation is what it is.

I will do a more thorough water changes for now. I changed it recently, right after the tetras died, but before the rasboras. I usually do it every 6 weeks, so it's due for another change in two weeks, but I can do it sooner if that's also recommended.

I'll wait until after the new year, to add more fish. And then, start slowly.

Thanks again for the responses. If there is anything else you think I can do, please let me know.

 

[NickAu]

When I change the water I always add a table spoon of salt. Should I do more?

Why do you add salt? salt as a preventative is useless at best and can actually harm your fish.

 

[Byron]

The Ich medicine I used was "Ich Attack" by a company called Kordon. I followed the directions on the bottle.

I used this once, several years back now, and found it ineffective. I cannot remember exactly, but I have the feeling that I thought the fish were reacting oddly to it. Anyway, I would forget this and any similar "medication." Heat and salt is best for ich, if it is ich, for most fish (there are some exceptions).

I do a water change once a week - about 25% of the tank. I guess I can do more. Would that be just for the time being as I try to flush out whatever might still be in the water? Or is a 75% water change recommended as a regular thing. It seems rather extreme.

I will do a more thorough water changes for now. I changed it recently, right after the tetras died, but before the rasboras. I usually do it every 6 weeks, so it's due for another change in two weeks, but I can do it sooner if that's also recommended.

These major and more frequent water changes are to clean things out, and I would do several major changes this week and next. Going forward, when an aquarium is "OK," a regular weekly water change should be sufficient. I always change at least 50%, usually closer to 60%. Provided your source water parameters are close to the tank water parameters (GH, KH, pH, temperature) nothing beats a water change. If you could change the tank volume every day the fish would love it. But we don't need to go to such extremes when the biology is balanced and there are no issues.

When I change the water I always add a table spoon of salt. Should I do more?

This is doing absolutely nothing beneficial, but it is detrimental to many fish, especially soft water species such as you have. Freshwater fish have evolved a physiology that is detrimentally affected by salt (meaning common salt, sodium chloride). Salt can be an ideal treatment for parasites, but it has to be at a significant level (which most but not all fish can temporarily handle) to be effective, and this cannot be maintained on a permanent basis. I wrote an article to explain this, here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/SaltArtHosking.htm

Byron.

 

[mbpted]

Why do you add salt? salt as a preventative is useless at best and can actually harm your fish.

This is doing absolutely nothing beneficial, but it is detrimental to many fish, especially soft water species such as you have. Freshwater fish have evolved a physiology that is detrimentally affected by salt (meaning common salt, sodium chloride). Salt can be an ideal treatment for parasites, but it has to be at a significant level (which most but not all fish can temporarily handle) to be effective, and this cannot be maintained on a permanent basis. I wrote an article to explain this, here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/SaltArtHosking.htm

Thanks for comments and the article on salting water. I've been using this product: API Aquarium Salt

It was recommended by an employee at the local fish store when I first started keeping an aquarium. She may have been trying to sell me more products, but she seemed sincere and said she used in the all the tanks at the store. If I remember correctly, she said that it helped reduce stress, but now it sounds like she may not have been as knowledgable as she sounded.

As it is, I've not been putting in as much as recommended on the packaging so as you say, it's probably not doing anything. (and as your article says, it's become something I do to "do something.") I'll drop that additive, and concentrate on more water changes.

I wonder if that's why my Ph has been so high. I did test a tube right out of the tap once, and it was just as high, so I doubt it.

My only worry is that if stress can encourage sickness and Ich, can changing the water in the tank can also increase the stress level? My fish always crowded together in their schools when I did my vacuuming, rushing away from the syphon with deliberate purpose. As gentle as I tried to be, I could tell they didn't like it. Although when I'd pour in the new water, the Rasboras seemed to enjoy swimming into the stream.

Thanks so much for this. A great discussion. I'm learning a lot.

 

[Byron]

I wonder if that's why my Ph has been so high. I did test a tube right out of the tap once, and it was just as high, so I doubt it.

Understanding pH requires understandig of the relationship with GH and KH. The latter, carbonate hardness or Alkalinity, serves to "buffer" the pH, preventing fluctuations. We need to know the GH and KH of your source water, along with the pH, to determine what you may or may not expect from the pH.

In every aquarium, organics accumulate and these acidify the water and thus lower pH (putting it very simply). The buffering capability of the KH impacts this, depending. The higher the KH of the source water, the greater the buffering capacity, and attempts to lower the pH by any means (other than lessening the GH/KH) will not be effective long term. This is where many resort to pH lowering chemicals which cause more harm than good because they not only don';t work but they get inside the fish--just like the salt--and this causes more problems for the fish.

Salt itself does not impact GH/KH or pH. There are other minerals like calcium and magnesium that affect GH/KH, and the pH is relative to these. Adding calcium and magnesium will raise pH, along with GH, possibly KH.

When testing tap water for pH, you need to out-gas the dissolved CO2 or the reading may be inaccurate. Letting a glass of tap water sit 24 hours, or shaking it very briskly, will achieve this. Then test it. IF the pH in the aquarium is turning out to be consistently higher than the tap water, this is probably something calcareous that is dissolving minerals into the tank water. The pH should be close to the tap water pH, or lower, naturally.

My only worry is that if stress can encourage sickness and Ich, can changing the water in the tank can also increase the stress level? My fish always crowded together in their schools when I did my vacuuming, rushing away from the syphon with deliberate purpose. As gentle as I tried to be, I could tell they didn't like it. Although when I'd pour in the new water, the Rasboras seemed to enjoy swimming into the stream.

Stress is variable. Obviously any thrashing about in the tank by us is probably going to upset the fish--though I have some that crowd around my hands and arm. But this is a case where the permanent good outweights the temporary bad. Nothing is as important to fish health as water changes. The stability this affords to the biological system cannot be achieved any other way within the confines of any aquarium.

I have quite a comprehensive article on stress on another forum, and as we cannot link other fish forums (rightly so) I will just cite a few bits that may help in understanding stress.

The effects of stress on fish are very complicated physiologically, and are often subtle. There may or may not be external signs discernible to us—it can continue for weeks and even months, sometimes up to the point when the fish just suddenly dies. The reasons for this are involved.

Adrenaline released during the stress response increases blood flow to the gills to provide for the increased oxygen demands of stress. The release of adrenaline into the blood stream elevates the heart rate, blood flow and blood pressure. This increases the volume of blood in vessels contained within the gills, increasing the surface area of the gills to help the fish absorb more oxygen from the water. The elevated blood flow allows increased oxygen uptake for respiration but also increases the permeability of the gills to water and ions. This is what is known as the osmorespiratory compromise (Folmar & Dickhoff, 1980; Mazeaud et al., 1977). In freshwater fish, this increases water influx and ion losses. This is more critical in small fish than larger due to the gill surface to body mass ratio (Bartelme, 2004).

Short-term stress will cause an increase in heart rate, blood pressure, and respiration as described in the preceding paragraph. The fish can only maintain these altered states for a short and finite period of time before they will either adapt or (more often) the stress will become chronic. During this initial stage the fish may look and act relatively normal, but it is depleting energy reserves because of the extra physiological requirements placed upon it. At the chronic stage the hormone cortisol is released, which is responsible for many of the negative health effects associated with stress.​

So, the brief "stress" of a water change will not cause lasting damage, and indeed the rejuvenation of fish in response to these is even more positive. Stress when it continues to the chronic stage is directly responsible for 95% of all fish disease. So it is critical to minimize severe stress as much as possible.

Byron.

 

[NickAu]

My only worry is that if stress can encourage sickness and Ich, can changing the water in the tank can also increase the stress level?

I normally give my fish some bloodworm after water changes or whenever I need to put my hand in a tank, after a while the fish realize that water change = yummies to eat and show no fear.

The only problem with that is the fish crowd around you hand and the hose because they expect something, Ever tried to do work in a tank with 5 Clown loaches swimming very close to your fingers nudging them and clicking? and of course when the Loaches start the other inhabitants rush in to investigate.

My Bettas use it as an excuse to flare and nip my fingers.

Even my Red Cherry shrimp get in on the act.

I had to put a bit of sponge over the end of the hose to stop shrimp being sucked up.

 

[StevenF]

I do a water change once a week - about 25% of the tank. I guess I can do more. Would that be just for the time being as I try to flush out whatever might still be in the water? Or is a 75% water change recommended as a regular thing. It seems rather extreme.

A 50% water change once a week will have to be done about 4 times (about a month) to flush out any remaining medication in the water. A lot of people do 50% water changes once per week without any problems.

I haven't had ICH yet but If I did I would get a UV sterilizer. This will kill any free floating parasites and harmful bacteria floating in the water. This would hopefully slow the spread of the disease. Along with higher water temperature it should help. Also if your remaing fish is not infected it might help clear the tank of parasites before you finish the water changes.

 

[Byron]

As UV Sterilizer has been mentioned...this is a considerable expense for minimal benefit, if indeed any. In order to effectively kill any parasites or similar in the water, all the water in the tank would have to pass through the sterilizer before any of it returned to the tank. Otherwise, parasites can easily miss the sterilizer by moving elsewhere in the water column. And if fish are present, the parasites that emerge from the cyst (forgotten the scientific name, this will do) sitting on the substrate or wherever, will find a host fish fairly quickly.

Byron.

 

[NickAu]

I have treated ICH with just heat, I was afraid to use salt as Loaches are sensitive to it, Slowly bring the water temo to 30 C leave it there for 36 hours then bring it back to normal slowly.