How Quick Will It Cycle With Safestart And Dirty Filter Floss?

[upNdown]

I just started a new 50 gallon tank.  They guy at the fish shop sold me 6 tetra's to cycle it with and gave me some floss from one of his filters, full of bacteria.  I also threw in a bottle of Tetra SafeStart.  Now, 48 hours later, I'm showing no ammonia, no nitrite and 5 ppm nitrate.
So my question is, can a tank be instantly cycled using bottled and borrowed bacteria?  Seems unlikely, and I guess I'll find out in the upcoming days, but I'd love to hear any feedback.

 

[Shaddex]

You can cycle a tank on just "Used Media".

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Filter floss is next to worthless as a jump start for bacteria. It is a mechanical media, which are, by definition, designed to clog. This makes them very inhospitable homes for the nitrifying bacteria. The Safe Start should work just fine.
 
6 tetras in a 50 gal will not make a lot of ammonia. So two things are possible here. One is that there is not really enough ammonia in the tank to show up yet. The other is the ammonia being produced is easily being handled by the Safe Start which also means it is handling the nitrite.
 
However, to answer your general question "can a tank be instantly cycled using bottled and borrowed bacteria?" The answer is yes. In fact it can be fully cycled with either one alone or in combination with live plants, which also consume ammonia.
 
I suggest you let the tank run as is for the next few days (2-3) and test for ammonia at least once a day. If you read 0 every time, then you are likely cycled and should add more fish right away. if you have plenty of bacteria it needs more ammonia anyhow, so the new fish will provide it. To be safe do not increase the bio-load by more than 100% in this addition. Be prepared for a small ammonia spike, so test for ammonia the next few days after you add the new fish. If there is no spike, you can add more fish again. If you want to feel even safer- test for nitrite as well. When a tank is cycled, it has enough nitrite oxidizers to handle all of it that the ammonia bacteria produce.

 

[upNdown]

I like the way you're thinking - adding more fish seems like a great idea!  I'll definitely do that in a couple of days if I'm not getting any ammonia readings. 
My question for you is, how can floss be nearly useless for transferring bacteria?  The stuff he gave me was brown and nasty - how is that not full of bacteria?

 

[KirkyArcher]

Sponges are also mechanical filter media, and lots of filters only have sponges in them and successfully maintain a healthy environment for fish,

 

[TwoTankAmin]

All that brown gunk is gunk not bacteria.
 
The difference between floss and a sponge is the porosity. However. one should be rinsing out sponges regularly to keep the flow pretty open through them. used floss denies any bacteria the ammonia/nitrite/oxygen.inorganic carbon that is delivered with the flow through of water.
 
To date the most effective bio-filters are properly set up and maintained under gravel filters. that s because they always have good flow through and offer a huge surface area for the bacteria to colonize. This is the exact opposite of floss which is designed to trap fine particles. It is these which clog it up and effectively suffocate any bacteria that may have tried to colonize. They key to large healthy bacterial colonies is a good flow through of water bringing them all they need.
 
Sponges can be used for both mechanical and biological filtration. They come in different por0sities. the larger the pores, the less area there is for the bacteria but the more large particals that can be trapped. This is why pre-filter sponges are coarser  and bi0- sponges are more fine pored. Look at how Poret Foams are specified:
 
"The size of pores is calculated in pores per inch (PPI) and the foam is made in pore sizes from 10-45 PPI in several colors."

 
In the USA they are the dealer for Poret foam http/www.swisstropicals.com/Poret%20Filter%20Foam.html
 
The key to good bio-media is that is always has good flow and is greatest with the more surface area is avaialable to hold bacteria.

 

[Fishmanic]

I have an aquaclear 50 filter with the layers being as follows:  
 
highly porous sponge, 2 layers of filter floss,  and lastly ceramic rings. I plan on removing the lower floss and replacing it every 2 weeks or when clogging up.   Will this setup be alright to support bacteria growth in the ceramic media and sponge or am I better off removing the floss most of the time?

 

[upNdown]

When you explain it that way it makes sense. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The whole key to understanding what makes a good bio media is knowing that the bacteria establish inside a bio-film they create. There are other types of bacteria that share the bio-film with the nitrifyers. The bio-film keeps them in place mand gives them a measure of protection from chlorine, chloramine many antibiotics etc. But this also means that the bacteria do not actively seek out the nutrients they need, they must be delivered to them.
 
These things are delivered in the water that passes by the bio-film. The biggest, healthiest colonies of the bacteria will occur where the best delivery system is. But is is not just this simple. Any given tanks needs a specific amount of bacteria present to handle however much ammonia/nitrite this may be. But there is no limit to where the bacteria might colonize as long as the flow is sufficient to deliver the needed nutrients and the bacteria are nut subject to direct light (they are photosensitive).
 
So, if ones filter has insufficient media space for all the needed bacteria, or if it is poorly maintained and allowed to clog up, the needed bacteria will colonize other places in a tank. This includes the substrate, the decor, the plants, even the glass itself. A properly set up enough to have tried to colonize it before it begins to clog. I use a lot of floss in my power filters and have changed it weekly for many years and have never even given a thought to this having any effect on the ability of tanks to process the nitrogen compounds.
 
There is one caveat in all of this and that is what is referred to as shear force. When current is too strong it can cause the bio-film to detach along with its inhabitants. When bio-films become too thick, they become increasing susceptible to this effect. This is one of the little discussed benefits of the bio-wheel design. The design of the folds and the rotational movement encourage the bio-film to form in a more even and spread out layer which minimizes the potential for shearing because it has gotten too thick.

 

[upNdown]

Well, now I just don't know.  For two days in a row, the readings have been about the same.  Honestly I can't tell if the ammonia is at 0 or .25, and I can't tell if the Niitrates are at 0 or 5.  I think I'm just going to cross my fingers, add more fish, and keep testing the water.

 

[KirkyArcher]

It does sound a lot like "tap water" readings at the minute, really need to see Nitrates giving higher readings than tap water values

 

[upNdown]

It does sound a lot like "tap water" readings at the minute, really need to see Nitrates giving higher readings than tap water values

 
Believe me, I share your suspicions.  But now I'm on day 10.  My population is 7 or 8 neon tetras, 3 largish white tetras, 2 serpae tetras and a small clown pleco, and I keep getting the same numbers.  The ph is about 7.8, Nitrites are definitely 0, and the ammonia and the nitrates both seem to be between 0 and the next color on the chart. 
The fish seem quite healthy.  One serpae tetra died on day 6.  3 or 4 neons died, but they were small ones who were terrorized by the larger tetras.  The larger neons have settled into a happy group and are being left alone. 
So, I dunno.

 

[l_l_l]

Fish dying is not a real good sign man.
What kind of tests are you using?

 

[upNdown]

True.  But nobody's died in five days.  4 immature neons died within two days of purchase, one of whom I saw tail deep in a white tetra's mouth.  They have a reputation for not making transitions well anyway - that, combined with the stress of being hunted by the white tetras, and I'd say it's surprising that two survived.  Bad call on my part; I should have guessed that they were too small.  I added 6 bigger neons from a better fish shop, and not only have they thrived, but they're protecting the two remaining small ones. 
My point is that those deaths were understandable.  Aside from that, the only other death in 11 days has been a serpae tetra, who died on day 6.  Until I see any of the other serpaes or whites looking unhealthy, I'm going to hope that was a fluke. 
I'm using the API master test kit.  And I got the same readings again today - Ammonia 0/.25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0/5.  And the fishies are colorful and active.

 

[upNdown]

I'm still not sure where this tank stands. 
On Friday, day 14, I got a pretty clear .25 Ammonia reading, so I added a "maintenence" level dosage of SmartStart. 
Today, day 17, my readings are Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, and today's Nitrate reading was a very strong 5. 
Today's the best Nitrate reading I've gotten, so I take that as a good sign.  But I'm pretty baffled that I've never gotten a Nitrite reading.  Is that typical of using smartstart and used media - that Nitrite is converted as soon as it's created?