How Long

[Arcticfox1977]

I am doing the fish in cycle. I know you guys hate that, but impatient kids. I have done all the necessary WC's eg. When ammonia reads 0.25 50-90% WC. I have not lost any fish so far due to ammonia poisoning.
Anyway, I have had fish in for 10 weeks now. Gradually I am going longer without WC's. So far I am at 4-5 days before ammonia shows up. My question is, how long does it take for nitrite to show up?

 

[biggerfish]

well you want to keep ammonia level higher, that's what causes the ammonia eating bacteria to start growing and thriving and then they produce nitrites as a byproduct. When you start getting nitrites, nitrite eating bacteria will grow that produces nitrates ( which is harmless under 40pmm) has a byproduct, and  after you have ammonia/nitrite eating bacteria levels high enough to keep them both at 0 your tank i cycled. Cycling a bit more complicated then that but i wont go into detail, you can find tons of instructions on cycling on the internet.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Let the ammonia get up to between 0.5-1.0.
If you don't have enough ammonia then the bacteria will struggle to find enough food to grow.
It is good that you're doing so many water changes to keep your fish healthy but as long as they aren't in the ammonia for too long then there should hopefully be no long term effects.

 

[shawsharp]

Too much ammonia in your fish tank can build up and be potentially hazardous to aquatic life. Ammonia normally comes from the metabolic waste excreted by fish in your tank therefore the overfeeding of fish in your tank or lack of adequate biological filtration can exacerbate the problem. In natural ponds and lakes, ammonia is not usually so much of a problem, as there is a good through flow of water, but in man-made fish tanks, the over feeding of fish and unnatural environment makes ammonia levels more of an issue.

Ammonium (NH4) is constantly changing between Ammonium and Ammonia (NH3) and Hydrogen ions in water. This equilibrium is affected by changes to the pH and temperature of your water. The maximum long term level of Ammonia in mg/litre that can be tolerated for healthy fish. As pH rises and temperature climbs, less and less Ammonia can be tolerated.

 

[Arcticfox1977]

Let the ammonia get up to between 0.5-1.0.
If you don't have enough ammonia then the bacteria will struggle to find enough food to grow.
It is good that you're doing so many water changes to keep your fish healthy but as long as they aren't in the ammonia for too long then there should hopefully be no long term effects.

Are those levels of ammonia not fatal for fish??
Also I've looked into this drtims one and only product. Does this actually work? Does it put bacteria into your filter? I've tried other products like this at the start and never saw any results.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

How high you can allow the ammonia to get and for how long is primarily a function of the pH of your tank. Any given ammonia reading is more toxic the higher the pH and less so the lower the pH. Temperature has a similar effect but much less so than pH. The higher the temperature, the more toxic any ammonia reading will be.
 
If one wants to attempt a fish in cycle, it takes more learning than a fishless cycle requires. You need to know how to calculate the % of toxic ammonia for your specific readings. You need to know how to deal with elevated nitrite which can be alleviated to some degree by adding salt to a tank when doing so is possible.
 
The ideal solution is to add a good bottled bacteria or to locate cycled media that other fish keepers are willing to donate from their cycled tanks. One can also reduce the number of fish in a tank in order to have less ammonia being produced.
 
When cycling with fish the goal is to end up having done the fewest possible number of water changes along the way. This will mean the tank will be cycled in the shortest possible time without causing any permanent harm to the fish.

 

[Arcticfox1977]

Thank you for all the added information.
So I could let the ammonia read 0.25 for 2 days? Would this do any harm to the fish?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

 
How high you can allow the ammonia to get and for how long is primarily a function of the pH of your tank. Any given ammonia reading is more toxic the higher the pH and less so the lower the pH. Temperature has a similar effect but much less so than pH. The higher the temperature, the more toxic any ammonia reading will be.

 
Did I miss where you listed your pH and tank temp? I can not suggest what level of ammonia you can let run for how long without this information. I also have no idea what fish are in the tank nor what size the tank is nor what filters you have or whether you have any live plants.
 
Dr Tim's is a good product and should work. Tetra's Safe Start should also work. In either case, you should follow the directions to the letter.

 

[Arcticfox1977]

Thank you.
Fish in my tank are in my SIG
95l marina tank. Fluval u2 filter. Plants are in my SIG. Ph7.6, temp 28oC.

 

[singlecutguitar]

Myself always do fish-in cycle. I know it's cruel but equipment is hard to find and too expensive here

 

[TwoTankAmin]

At your pH and temp., a .25 ppm reading for total ammonia means you have .007 ppm of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia. Using the value suggested by the Merck Veterinary Manual, .05 ppm is the danger line. Almost any research I have read (and I have read a bunch) will say that readings under .02 ppm are not harmful for anything aquatic. A reading of .25 ppm in your tank is almost meaningless for shorter term time periods. Just to give you an idea, in your tank:
 
At a test kit reading of .5 ppm, the NH3 would be about .014 ppm. This level is not an issue for several weeks.
 
At a test kit reading of 1.0 ppm, the NH3 would be about .022 ppm. This level for a week or even two should be no issue and maybe longer.
 
At a test kit reading of 2.0 ppm, the NH3 would be about .055 ppm. This level could be an issue fairly fast and remedial action is advised.
 
What this means is for your tank you should try to let the ammonia rise to somewhere between 1 and 2 ppm before taking action. However, you also need to be flexible. This means you need to observe your fish and to be alert to behavioral changes. While it is nice to use test kits to tell us what to do, we always have to be aware that these are not the most accurate of measurements. So even if .5 or 1.0 ppm test results should not cause problems, if your fish show signs of distress, you do the water change or take other measures to make sure they are safe despite what the kits say. One thing is certain, extended exposure to low levels of ammonia are not safe for for fish. There is a difference between letting a fish be in some ammonia for a short time and their being chronically exposed to lower levels. In a proper fish in cycle, the amount of time it exposes fish to ammonia should be fairly short term.
 
As I have said, a fish in cycle is really a delicate balance between too little and too much ammonia (or nitrite). But it is not an exact science for a number of reasons. For most fish, when very young they are more susceptable to ammonia. As they become juveniles they have the highest resistance and then as they age it drops such that older fish are more susceptable. Further, different species have different resistances. What is safe for one fish is not so for another. This is why is is important to select the proper fish for cycling. They may even be fish you plan to rehome once the cycle is complete.
 
One of the biggest differences between fish in and fishless cycling is the degree of control one has over the amount of ammonia going into a tank and the timing of it. In fishless, it is precise, we measure and test and can get what ever levels we want. In fish in, the best we can do is control the number, size and age of the fish used. The two biggest problems one encounters in fish in cycles gone wrong are starting with too many fish and/or the wrong types of fish.

 

[Arcticfox1977]

TTA I appreciate everything you have just said. I will try waiting for ammonia to get to 0.5ppm for a couple of days to see how the fish react. I will then do a WC. If all is well I will then wait till ammonia is 1ppm.

Another question slightly off topic. When I have my lights on for my plants should they be on during the day or wait til night to have them on?
At the moment I have them on between 15.00-22.00.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Try to run them on a regular cycle so they go on and off at the same time each day. if you want to be a nut about it you can have shorter and longer photo periods during the year to simulate the seasons. More work I don't care to do.
 
AF- I am actually working on another cycling related article which deals with this topic: "How to rescue a fish in cycle gone bad" I could write up a lovely piece on cycling with fish, but I won't since that would only encourage people to do them. In this day and age there is almost no reason for one not to go fishless. So I feel if I explain well how to do a fishless, it will have the effect of aiding and abetting.
 
And my preferred solution for fishless gone bad is to add Dr Tim's or Safe Start unless one can find enough cycled media from local fish keepers to do the job. Instead of trying to keep ammonia and nitrite out of the tank, I prefer putting the needed bacteria in to solve the problem. But buying bacteria is not so cheap and not all can afford that. The next best option is to remove fish from the tank which makes the cycle more manageable. Fewer fish = less ammonia produced. My least favorite choice is doing repeated large water changes for weeks on end. It is more work and stress on the fishkeeper and for sure is more stressful for fish which is a bad thing. And every time one has to do this, there is the chance to forget the dechlor, or to make some other mistake. After all we are only human.
 
And then there is the fact that to pull off a fish in cycle, one really needs to know more than to pull off a fishless cycle. There is more to learn and consider.
 
One last note for those who may be reading this thread. There is a big difference between ammonia during a fish in cycle and how to handle it vs when you discover ammonia or nitrite in an established tank. In this case, if you spot either, you need to find out why fast and fix any problem. That old saying about 0 ammonia and nitrite in an established tank does apply and you should never look the other way when you test either of these in your established tank. It does not matter how low the reading is, find out why. It may prove to be a false reading, but you still need to investigate ASAP to be sure.
 
AF- if you have problems/questions, feel free to shoot me a PM. Sometimes I don't read the forums for a while but I regularly check emails and I am set to be notified by Email when a new one arrives. So just Epoke me

 

[Arcticfox1977]

Thank you. Your knowledge and advice is priceless.

 

[HandFeeder]

I have used bacteria seeding (Stability) with great success, mid cycle and full-cycle on two separate tanks. Afterwards I wondered why this method isn't more recommended/used/prevalent.