High Ammonia Despite Repeated Water Changes

[luckyd]

The ammonia level in my 5-gallon tank is high despite 50% water changes over the past several days, and frequent water changes before that.  A little history: My daughters won two carnival goldfish.  We put them in dechlorinated water and set up a new 5-gallon tank but one died before it ever got there.  The LFS recommended a dalmation fish as a good companion for the remaining goldfish, but the second goldfish died within a few days of ich.  The dalmation fish did well but a few days ago our curiousity about her gender was cleared up when she delivered babies.  We had to transfer the Mother to a second 5-gallon tank to keep her away from the fry.  Before that transfer the ammonia was already high.  So the fry were delivered into a high ammonia environment that has been treated for ich.  We have been doing daily 25% to 50% water changes but still it remains in the danger level as measured by both our in-tank monitor and the LFS reagent strip test.  There are about 8-10 fry and they are doing well.  All this has happened in the space of about 3 weeks.  Any suggestions on how we can get the ammonia levels down further without risk to the babies?

 

[drobbyb]

The problem lies in your stocking. 5 gallons ia WAY to small for a goldfish, so no matter how large your waterchanges are there simlply isn't enough volume. A SINGLE common goldfish needs 30 gallons by itself. To properly house that goldfish you are going to have to spend some money. I can't say if it's worth it or not to buy the proper tank, filter, gravel, etc to keep that carnival win, ,that would be up to you.

If it were me, I would take the goldfish to the fish store and complete a fishless cycle, then go back and buy a nice pretty fighting fish for the 5 gallon tank.

 

[OldMan47]

You get the ammonia levels down by doing water changes. I do a change of about 90% when I am having any trouble similar to what you are experiencing. The shallow layer of water in the tank during the change is barely enough to keep the fish from flopping around and after the change the water is so much better that my fish swim around as if they didn't even know they had been inconvenienced. Don't forget to unplug the the heater and filter while doing the water change and always treat the new, temperature matched, water with a dechlorinator. By removing virtually all of the poisons from your tank, the improvement of water quality is dramatic.

 

[drobbyb]

Don't get me wrong here, OldMan47 is right about the size of the waterchanges, but that still leaves you with a goldfish in a too small enclosure. For normal tropical fish, you can go at it like a fish in cycle, and I suppose you still could do it with a goldfish but it would be twice the work. Goldfish are messy fish, meaning they produce alot of waste, moreso than other fish. What you are aiming for is to get and keep your ammonia under .25 ppm. With a normal fish load this can be achieved by one or two large waterchanges everyday. With a messy fish like a goldfish, you are looking at at least 2 possibly 3 to 4 everyday. It's possible if you have the time, but it's gonna be work.

 

[Tolak]

Strip tests are generally quite inaccurate, liquid tests will give more accurate results. Which dechlorinator are you using, and are you on municipally supplied water or a private well? Without getting too technical, the disinfectants used by municipal water supplies can cause a false ammonia reading when using certain dechlorinators.

This is actually a good thing if this is happening, as it is rendering the ammonia into a much less harmful form.

****Edit To Add****

Both goldfish have passed on, one at the beginning, one later from ich.

 

[luckyd]

Thank you all for your good advice. Tolak, you are right that both goldfish have passed on. We now have one dalmation fish in one tank and her babies in the other. I mentioned the goldfish because I wondered if having it in there for even a few days and having to treat for ich may have contributed to the ammonia overload. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that.

We have municipal water and are using Aqueon water conditioner containing sodium hydroxymethane sulfinate, disodium EDTA, sodium carbonate, and polyvinylpyrolidones (I have no idea what I just typed!). Here and there we have also used the Aqueon Ammonia neutralizer which also dechlorinates, but I get conflicting advice from the LFS about whether that's a good idea or not (some say it causes a rebound effect, others say it causes false high readings, others say it slows down the cycling). Do you think the water conditioners I'm using in city water could be giving false readings? We're using the same conditioners in the Mom's new tank and so far those readings are hanging in the safe to alert range but that tank set-up is newer.

I'd like to try 90% water changes but I'm a little worried about sucking up the tiny dalmation babies in the process? Would two 40-50% water changes in one day have the same effect?

 

[drobbyb]

Ok now that the goldfish is passed on, rip, you are in a normal fish-in cycle situation. About the babies, you can always net them and put them in a small bowl of tank water so that they aren't sucked up. Basicailly, you have the gist of things with what advice has been given. You need a liquid based test kit (the one with the little test tubes) so that you can test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH. What this allows you to d is to keep an eye on the levels so you know when to change the water, and when to stop doing daily waterchanges. You need to keep your ammonia and nitrite levels below .25. No level of ammonia of nitrite is safe, but not as much damage happens below .25. Do you know anything about the nitrogen cycle? Have a read in the beginners resource center found here. Some really nice information there.

 

[Tolak]

The hydroxymethane sulfinate converts ammonia to ammonium, a substance harmless to fish at levels found in an aquarium, but still available to the nitrifying bacteria the same as ammonia. This will give you a false reading. The ammonia neutralizer does the same.

You can also get this after a large water change due to chloramine being used along with chlorine. Chloramine, a much more stable substance than chlorine, is composed of chlorine and ammonia. Your dechlorinator breaks this bond, removes the chlorine, leaving you with ammonia. It also converts the ammonia to ammonium, giving you the false reading after a large water change.

Since the tanks are cycling your next concern would be an elevated nitrite level. You will have to continue the large water changes, I'd suggest getting Seachem Prime for a dechlorinator at this point. They have a proprietary substance, the name of which I have been trying to get for years, that claims to detoxify nitrite.

How long has mom's tank been cycled? If it has been for an amount of time where it's due for a filter clean it may help to rinse the gunk off of the filter media, & add it to the tanks. There are also plenty of members willing to donate cycled media here.

For working in fry tanks I have an assortment of siphon hoses, with a piece of filter sponge that fits over the end. Barring this, and I have done this when in a hurry, you can adjust the flow with your thumb over the bucket end, and stop it instantly when fry get too close. Sometimes shining a light on one end of the tank will cause them to swim either towards or away from the light. If you siphon a fry or three into the bucket don't worry; they generally do just fine. A turkey baster is a great device for removing fry from a bucket & putting them back where they belong.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Tons of great advice above! Yes, you must keep your ammonia, and when it becomes present, nitrite, below .25 ppm as much as possible. You need to purchase a good liquid base test kit. Liquid test kits are way more accurate than strip test kits. Also, do not rely on your LFS for doing water tests, as they might be using cheap strip test kits, which would result in inaccurate readings.

Ammonia at or above .25 ppm will give fish permanent gill damage. Nitrite at or above .25 ppm will give your fish permanent nerve damage. Both of these levels, together or separate; if the fish are exposed to these levels too long it will kill them, as you have found out with the passing of your two gold fish.

So, your first priority is to get a Liquid test kit to constantly keep an eye on your water parameters, especially during a cycling tank! You also need to read here about for to properly perform a fish-in cycle, in which you are in right now.

Also, doing two 40-50% water changes in one day does not equal a 90% water change. The first time you do a water change say of 50%, then you fill the tank back up. You have diluted that amount of new water with they old, thus lower your present ammonia and/or nitrite spike by 50% or half. Doing another 50% water change after that is only going to have half they effect. So a 50% water change now is only going to equal 25%, or all together a 75% water change.

Here:
Lets say you have 4 ppm of ammonia in your tank and you do a 50% water change. Now you have 2 ppm of ammonia. You again do another 50% water change and now you have 1 ppm of ammonia. A total drop of 3 ppm. 4 X .75(75%) = 3. OR 4 X .5 = 2, 2 X .5 = 1 with a total of 3. Resulting in a 1 ppm left over in ammonia. Now, if you did a 100% water change all at one time, you would get obviously 0 ppm left over. Or say you do a 90% water change. 4 X .9 = 3.6, So, 4 - 3.6 = .4 ppm of ammonia remaining in your tank.

In conclusion:
One 100% water change of 4 ppm = 0 ppm left over.
Two 50% water changes of 4 ppm = 1 ppm left over.
One 90% water change of 4 ppm = .4 ppm left over.

-FHM

 

[luckyd]

Thank you all again! How great to have a team of experts willing to help us newbies!

I checked the ingredients on the ammonia neutralizer, and sure enough sodium hydroxymethane sulfinate is the only ingredient in that. It's also the first listed ingredient in the water conditioner. So it could indeed be converting the ammonia into ammonium.

Still, I agree with all of you that a 90% water change is the best remedy for the situation. We'll try that tonight, and I'll let you know how it goes. Our LFS did an analysis 3 days ago and said the nitrites and nitrates were good but ammonia levels were high. Right now, we have a monitor mounted on the side of the tank. But as several of you you recommended, I'll also look into getting the liquid tests so we can measure more precisely.

When we do the 90% water change, will that interrupt the cycling at all? Or will there be enough bacteria left to keep it going?

As long as I'm asking questions again, I'll throw in one more. What's the best amount to feed a dalmation fish. One LFS guy actually recommended one flake a day but I've read that dalmations have hearty appetites and my fish seems to be no exception. Right now, we follow the package directions and give enough flakes to feed her for about 3 minutes three times a day.

 

[drobbyb]

No, it won't hurt the cycle. The bacteria don't live in the water. They can be found on all surfacs of the tank, but 90% of them are in the filter. So no matter how many waterchanges you do, they will still be fine.

As for the feeding qustion, you only want to feed your fish an amount that they will consume in 2 to 3 minutes once a day. Underfeeding is better than overfeeding, especially during a fish-in cycle.

 

[fatheadminnow]

The bacteria do live in the water column, but in insignificant amounts. This is how we get these beneficial bacteria into our tanks, through our water source. However, these bacteria, like stated above, colonize on surfaces in our tank with 99% of them colonizing in our filters. Once established in our filters, these bacteria will colonize in large enough amounts to process ammonia and nitrite. This colonization process is called cycling a tank. Once you have enough of these bacteria in your filter, ammonia and nitrite will remain at 0 ppm.

So, doing any amount of water change is not going to effect the colonization process of these bacteria in any way, because they are colonizing in your filter, not in the water column. They just get to your filter though your water source, as the initial step. Once in your filter, that is where they will remain and live out their life cycle.

-FHM

 

[drobbyb]

The bacteria do live in the water column, but in insignificant amounts. This is how we get these beneficial bacteria into our tanks, through our water source. However, these bacteria, like stated above, colonize on surfaces in our tank with 99% of them colonizing in our filters. Once established in our filters, these bacteria will colonize in large enough amounts to process ammonia and nitrite. This colonization process is called cycling a tank. Once you have enough of these bacteria in your filter, ammonia and nitrite will remain at 0 ppm.

So, doing any amount of water change is not going to effect the colonization process of these bacteria in any way, because they are colonizing in your filter, not in the water column. They just get to your filter though your water source, as the initial step. Once in your filter, that is where they will remain and live out their life cycle.

-FHM

I thought that's what I said. lol

 

[fatheadminnow]

Lol, you said "The bacteria don't live in the water," when in fact they do live in the water. Just though I would clear that up.

-FHM

 

[OldMan47]

The bacteria are quite capable of living in the water but are found in much higher numbers in the filter and on other surfaces. Water changes will not slow a cycle at all and are sometimes needed to control pH excursions.