Hey first post, about substrate and cycling

[Oakensheeld]

Ok so my first problem I would like to ask would be substrate questions...

I went to my LFS when setting up my new 65g aquarium, I asked what substrate should I put in to give my tropical tank a marine look, I told them I wanted a kind of sand and asked about pool sand and they said absolutely no. So end story they told me aragonite is the only thing to use and that any fish would be good with this substrate as well as plants.

Well I really am struggling now with my ammonia its 4 weeks after the initial setup and changing the water every day is not reducing ammonia I'm stuck at 1.0ppm. My decorations also consist of a limestone based rock, texas holey rock...

After talking to a guy that builds aquariums professionally I was told to remove the aragonite and go with a plant friendly substrate. I'm thinking maybe my substrate and rock are keeping my ammonia high because my fish are fed every day but not a lot.

Please help I've spent an insane amount of money and now I'm regretting the substrate.

 

[Colin_T]

If you have aragonite and calcium based rocks in the tank, your pH is going to be very high (about 8.4). Any ammonia produced in this water will be very toxic to any fish in the water.

If you have a filter running continuously on the tank, it should be converting ammonia into nitrite by now.

Have you checked the tap water for ammonia?
If you have chloramine in the tap water then some dechlorinators will bind with the ammonia and stop it being taken up by the filters, and other dechlorinators won't bind the ammonia.

Stop feeding the fish for a couple of days and see if the ammonia goes down. If it does then you are feeding too much and your filter has not established properly.

Do you get a nitrite and nitrate reading?

 

[Demeter32]

Don't listen to store employees unless you are familiar with them and trust them pretty well. Pool filter sand is perfectly safe and I have it in 4 of my tanks. It won't raise pH like aragonite either. I do not think any sort of substrate should be producing ammonia unless it has organic bits in it (such as plant matter). Did you cycle the tank before adding fish? If not then that is likely the main problem, though after a month with fish the tank should of cycled or be very close to cycling at this point. Are you getting any nitrites or nitrates?

 

[Byron]

Adding to what has been said...how you aquascape the tank must be geared to what the intended fish need, not what the aquarist "likes." No mention is made of fish, but assuming this is freshwater, many species will be unhealthy and even die with the mentioned substrate. Fish come from specific habitats and the basics must be provided for in the aquarium. We might be able to help you more if we knew what fish you intend keeping.

 

[Oakensheeld]

I didn't mention much did I? I am testing with api master kit, my ph is 7.6-7.8 my nitrates and nitrites reading 0 for the most part and the tank is around 4 weeks old I put fish in it 3 days after establishing it like a dummy.

I have a fire eel 6", 3 cichlids and 4 loaches. This is in a 65 gallon. I chose hardy fish bc of the high ph value. I know the tank will eventually be too small for the eel but we enjoy each others company and he is already hand feeding. The tx holey rock is limestone based but from recent searches I can figure out that they dont raise the ph very much. I have a cascade canister filter with course material and fine on bottom, ammonia neutralizer in the middle and the ceramic rings on the top.

Thanks for your input

 

[Oakensheeld]

I

Adding to what has been said...how you aquascape the tank must be geared to what the intended fish need, not what the aquarist "likes." No mention is made of fish, but assuming this is freshwater, many species will be unhealthy and even die with the mentioned substrate. Fish come from specific habitats and the basics must be provided for in the aquarium. We might be able to help you more if we knew what fish you intend keeping.

Would like to maintain a community tanks cichlids guoramis or other compatible fish. Mostly cichlids, they may be aggressive but in numbers I know they're better. The lfs told me that aragonite is good in cichlid tanks. And somehow my ph is 7.6-8 according to my kit which isn't bad.

 

[Byron]

I

Would like to maintain a community tanks cichlids guoramis or other compatible fish. Mostly cichlids, they may be aggressive but in numbers I know they're better. The lfs told me that aragonite is good in cichlid tanks. And somehow my ph is 7.6-8 according to my kit which isn't bad.

As Demeter said earlier, you must stop listening to advice from fish store employees. Always check it with knowledgeable aquarists (like on this forum) first before deciding.

Cichlids...which cichlids exactly? African rift lake species sometimes do best with more of them, and they need moderately hard or harder water with a basic pH (basic is above 7, mentioned because I have no idea of your knowledge level). But this is not the case with most neotropical species (those from Central and South America), quite the opposite on both issues.

Cichlids and gourami cannot be combined generally speaking. "Aggressive" varies with species and individuals obviously, and until we get down to specific species we cannot offer much more on this.

With the mentioned fish you now have, your options for additional fish are severely restricted. In fact, nothing else can be added. No idea what species the cichlids and loaches are, but this could bee more problems depending.

I forgot last time...welcome to TFF.

 

[Oakensheeld]

As Demeter said earlier, you must stop listening to advice from fish store employees. Always check it with knowledgeable aquarists (like on this forum) first before deciding.

Cichlids...which cichlids exactly? African rift lake species sometimes do best with more of them, and they need moderately hard or harder water with a basic pH (basic is above 7, mentioned because I have no idea of your knowledge level). But this is not the case with most neotropical species (those from Central and South America), quite the opposite on both issues.

Cichlids and gourami cannot be combined generally speaking. "Aggressive" varies with species and individuals obviously, and until we get down to specific species we cannot offer much more on this.

With the mentioned fish you now have, your options for additional fish are severely restricted. In fact, nothing else can be added. No idea what species the cichlids and loaches are, but this could bee more problems depending.

Kuhli loaches and red jewels. I've done a ton of reading on this but couldn't find a single thing about substrate or aragonite, that's why I'm here. with 8 fish in a 65 gallon tank I would think I could add more.... eventually but I might change the substrate depending on desire. The fish are healthy as far as I can tell very active and seem fine.

 

[Oakensheeld]

And I didn't just go to a Petco and ask advice I went to my lfs who has been in business 30 years. I can't for the life of me figure out why they would tell me aragonite is ok, if it's not. I can keep cichlids but I am considering ridding of the eel and just keeping cichlids if it's going to be a big issue. I really just want a simple planted tank, I can still use java moss and microsorums as well as other hardy plants.

 

[Demeter32]

While jewel cichlids are technically from African, they are not Rift lake cichlids so hard water with a high pH isn't a necessity for them, or so I've read. The loaches will not appreciate the substrate you have now, it is rather rough. Sand is the preferred substrate for kuhlies and likely the fire eel as well. Sand is actually perfect for planted tanks too, all my planted tanks have sand.

 

[Oakensheeld]

While jewel cichlids are technically from African, they are not Rift lake cichlids so hard water with a high pH isn't a necessity for them, or so I've read. The loaches will not appreciate the substrate you have now, it is rather rough. Sand is the preferred substrate for kuhlies and likely the fire eel as well. Sand is actually perfect for planted tanks too, all my planted tanks have sand.

So do you think sand or the black carib sea substrate designed for plants is better?

 

[Oakensheeld]

While jewel cichlids are technically from African, they are not Rift lake cichlids so hard water with a high pH isn't a necessity for them, or so I've read. The loaches will not appreciate the substrate you have now, it is rather rough. Sand is the preferred substrate for kuhlies and likely the fire eel as well. Sand is actually perfect for planted tanks too, all my planted tanks have sand.

I'm afraid to start the cycle process over again, if I drain the tank the fish have no wherwhere to go for a few weeks

 

[Byron]

Kuhli loaches and red jewels. I've done a ton of reading on this but couldn't find a single thing about substrate or aragonite, that's why I'm here. with 8 fish in a 65 gallon tank I would think I could add more.... eventually but I might change the substrate depending on desire. The fish are healthy as far as I can tell very active and seem fine.

OK, we're getting somewhere with more data. BTW, sometimes I can be a bit short, though not usually meaning to be; after several years on this forum dealing with the same basic issues from some who refuse to listen, one tends to be quick and to the point. When others ask questions and really are interested in providing the best for their fish...we will achieve more.

Kuhlii loahces need sand, but not aragonite. Play sand would be the best here, as it is completely safe (unlike no other frankly and very inexpensive). And chunks of wood to provide refuge like tunnels, crevices, etc. This is a shoaling species, meaning they livee in and must have a group, and like most all loaches they are highly social so this is very important. You have four which is better than fewer, but you might want to add a couple more. But, that depends what you do with the other fish and aquarium.

You mention plant-friendly substrate...play sand works there as well. I have this in all my 8 tanks and wouldn't have anything else (unless I went into harder water fish, where aragonite sand is better).

Fire Eel, presumably the species Mastacembelus erythrotaenia. This fish will tend to eat smaller fish as it matures (it does in the habitat) so this is a pending problem for the kuhlii especially. This eel also needs softish water with an acidic pH, another strike against the aragonite. More data here:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mastacembelus-erythrotaenia/

Red Jewel Cichlids, presumably Hemichromis lifalili, is also softish water, so again aragonite is problematical. More data here:
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hemichromis-lifalili/

As water parameters are being mentioned, and as they significantly impact fish physiology and health, we should ascertain the hardness (GH) and pH of your source water on its own.

I haven't dealt with the ammonia issue, but after four weeks with these fish the tank has likely not cycled. If your tank pH is above 7, ammonia is very toxic. If below 7, it is basically harmless as it will be ammonium. But nitrite is still an issue during cycling.

 

[Oakensheeld]

OK, we're getting somewhere with more data. BTW, sometimes I can be a bit short, though not usually meaning to be; after several years on this forum dealing with the same basic issues from some who refuse to listen, one tends to be quick and to the point. When others ask questions and really are interested in providing the best for their fish...we will achieve more.

Kuhlii loahces need sand, but not aragonite. Play sand would be the best here, as it is completely safe (unlike no other frankly and very inexpensive). And chunks of wood to provide refuge like tunnels, crevices, etc. This is a shoaling species, meaning they livee in and must have a group, and like most all loaches they are highly social so this is very important. You have four which is better than fewer, but you might want to add a couple more. But, that depends what you do with the other fish and aquarium.

You mention plant-friendly substrate...play sand works there as well. I have this in all my 8 tanks and wouldn't have anything else (unless I went into harder water fish, where aragonite sand is better).

Fire Eel, presumably the species Mastacembelus erythrotaenia. This fish will tend to eat smaller fish as it matures (it does in the habitat) so this is a pending problem for the kuhlii especially. This eel also needs softish water with an acidic pH, another strike against the aragonite. More data here:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mastacembelus-erythrotaenia/

Red Jewel Cichlids, presumably Hemichromis lifalili, is also softish water, so again aragonite is problematical. More data here:
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hemichromis-lifalili/

As water parameters are being mentioned, and as they significantly impact fish physiology and health, we should ascertain the hardness (GH) and pH of your source water on its own.

I haven't dealt with the ammonia issue, but after four weeks with these fish the tank has likely not cycled. If your tank pH is above 7, ammonia is very toxic. If below 7, it is basically harmless as it will be ammonium. But nitrite is still an issue during cycling.

Now that's helpful! As is everyone else but I am printing this and bringing it home. Thank you. I think I'll take out my aragonite and put in play sand this weekend...

 

[Oakensheeld]

So play sand or pool filter sand just curious as to the differences in these? Is it in to add a bit of soil underneath it for the plants? I plan on keeping the holey rock because it's so expensive. 350$ for the bunch I have but I'll make it work, the kuhlis love it because a few pieces I have are straight cavernous.

I'll head to lowes to get sand but want to make sure I'm getting what I need I know play sand can be dull colored and dont really want a tank that looks like a dark ugly base but I plan on carpeting it if possible.... but not all of it