Help with Synodontis Petricola / Cuckoo catfish???

[Hazze]

Hi all,

I'm currently seeing some strange/concerning behaviour from my Synodontis Petricola and I'm struggling to find much information about them online!

They have been fine up until last week when I purchased 2 German Blue Rams. I noticed that the female Ram had the very early stages of Finrot so I treated with interpet anti finrot treatment. After a few hours all of the fish in the tank were gasping at the surface so I added in an extra line of air which helped. Since then though my Synodontis Petricola have been acting very strange. They are flashing regularly and alarmingly. Swimming very erratically and or swimming up and down one side of the tank or in one place constantly. This is very unusual as they usually spend most of their time hiding unless feeding or the aquarium light is off.

Yesterday it reached a head and 4 days in to the treatment I decided this wasn't worth it anymore as I feared losing the catfish. I did a 40% water change and reintroduced carbon to the filter to remove the medication. This has helped but one fish in particular is still flashing and or swimming in one place up and down the glass. He has no sign of ich or anything visible at all.

Water is PH 7.4/6 which is steady. 0 ammonia and nitrite, nitrate about 15pp I would say.

I do weekly water changes of 40% and I'm religious with testing my water.

I have an 100l tank with a fluval 106. The tank has been established about 3 months and is well cycled.

The medicine did throw the cycle and I had a nitrite spike which I sorted very quickly with Prime.

I am at a loss as to what is wrong with the catfish? There are no visible signs of anything bacteria/parasite and they are still eating but they're clearly not happy about something.

My tank is over stocked as my molly's gave birth and 4 have grown (so now have 8). The other babies were eaten unfortunately as the mother gave birth before I could get a net for them. I have found a new home for the babies and they will be going this weekend. Could it be this that's stressing them out?

Any thoughts or insights are greatly appreciated! I am a complete novice with synodontis!

Thanks!

Harry

 

[Colin_T]

You poisoned the catfish and the medication was irritating their skin and gills.

Catfish, loaches & eels are scaleless fishes that cannot tolerate full strength medications. They are also more sensitive to chemicals in general. If you plan on treating catfish you should look for a medication that is suitable for scaleless fishes. If you can't find a medication for scaleless fishes then use a normal medication at half strength.

Fin rot is caused by poor water quality and a dirty environment. The best way to treat it is with big water changes and gravel cleaning the substrate. If the tank is more than 2 months old then clean the filter at least once a month and preferably every 2 weeks.

Due to the fin rot, poisoning and nitrite reading, I would a do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

How hard is the water?
Synodontis petricola come from Lake Tanganyika, which has a general hardness over 400ppm and a pH above 8.5. If your water is too soft it is going to cause them some problems. The ramirezi dwarf cichlids come from soft acid water and the two species should not be kept together due to their different water requirements. Mollies also require water with a GH above 250ppm.

 

[Hazze]

You poisoned the catfish and the medication was irritating their skin and gills.

Catfish, loaches & eels are scaleless fishes that cannot tolerate full strength medications. They are also more sensitive to chemicals in general. If you plan on treating catfish you should look for a medication that is suitable for scaleless fishes. If you can't find a medication for scaleless fishes then use a normal medication at half strength.

Fin rot is caused by poor water quality and a dirty environment. The best way to treat it is with big water changes and gravel cleaning the substrate. If the tank is more than 2 months old then clean the filter at least once a month and preferably every 2 weeks.

Due to the fin rot, poisoning and nitrite reading, I would a do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

How hard is the water?
Synodontis petricola come from Lake Tanganyika, which has a general hardness over 400ppm and a pH above 8.5. If your water is too soft it is going to cause them some problems. The ramirezi dwarf cichlids come from soft acid water and the two species should not be kept together due to their different water requirements. Mollies also require water with a GH above 250ppm.

Hi Colin,

Thanks so much for your response. I'm slightly embarrassed that I didn't know catfish were scaleless. It makes perfect sense - I will bear that in mind for the future.

I use prime as a water conditioner. Would doing so many frequent water changes avoid the need for further medication? Would this not further stress the fish?

Would quarantining the ram in a heated 30litre bucket so I can medicate it be a good solution as well for a few days?

With regards to the hardness of the water; 299ppm. Ph 7.4. The rams in the fish shop were kept in a ph of 7.4 and the guy who I trust as he's given me very good advice in the past said they were acclimatised to this. I'm not sure if they were bred here in the UK but I will find out. They usually have very good quality fish. I will pose this question to him. Is it not true that captive bred specimens raised in similar water conditions can acclimatise to conditions there wild cousins would not be able to tolerate? I purchased all my fish from the same shop. My mollies are thriving...

Thanks again for the help.

Harry

 

[Byron]

When you observe fish reacting like you describe following the addition of any additive/medication it is almost a certainty that they are being poisoned. Colin described that well. The immediate response should be a massive water change, 70-75% of the tank volume, using only a conditioner. Assuming the parameters (GH, pH, temp) are relatively the same between tank water and fresh, this will not have any adverse effects and could save the fish. Though internal damage from this (the poisoning I mean, not the water changes) could be permanent even though the fish live through it.

The flashing could be resulting from the poisoning, irritation, or ich. Ich first attacks fish gills so you don't see it, and flashing can occur. But it could just as easily be the other issues here. Keep in mind though that the fish were severely stressed, and stress is the direct cause of 95% of all fish disease, including ich; fish can fight off much of this but under severe stress the immune system is compromised and the pathogens/parasites have an easy time.

No mention is made of all the fish, nor of temperature. Rams must have warmth, with 80F (27C) minimum. Other fish may not tolerate that well, so look into the temp and decide whether to remove the rams or not. As for the adaptation, this species (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) must be maintained in water parameters (GH especially) the same (or close) to those of the water in which it was hatched and raised. Not all fish are like this, but this ram is. So if the breeder had water comparable to yours, then that issue is not problematic; if not, it could be.

Other species may or may not adapt to differing water parameters, there is no hard and fast rule or assurance. Some cannot period, some seem capable of significant differences, though with the latter it is usually the case that the species itself is found in differing waters in nature. Regardless, keeping fish that naturally require the water parameters the aquarist is able to provide, reasonably close, will mean healthier fish long-term.

 

[Colin_T]

If the fin rot is not advanced then doing a 75% water change and gravel cleaning the substrate every day for a week should be sufficient to fix the problem without adding medications. However, if there are red lines in the tail then it might need medicating, but try water changes first.

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Water changes don't stress fish unless the new water is significantly different to what is in the tank, or if the new water has chlorine/ chloramine in. Poor water quality, microscopic disease organisms in the water, and chemicals in the water stress fish. Big water changes help to dilute these and make the aquarium healthier for the inhabitants.

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If the rams were bred in hard water they should be fine. But if they were bred in soft water they might have problems, mainly stress and a shorter life span. Fish can adapt to different water to some degree, but if there is a major difference in water chemistry to what the fish was bred in or evolved in, then they don't do as well in the different water.

It's a bit like people living in hot dry climates, most humans did not evolve to live in a desert so when the temperature gets too hot we struggle. We adapt to the heat to some degree but we don't do as well as if the temperature is cooler. Fish can adapt to different conditions but they are under more stress and don't do as well.

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Your water is ideal for livebearers like mollies. The pH and GH are a bit low for the Synodontis but it is acceptable. My personal opinion is the GH is too high for the Ramirezi dwarf cichlid. Don't try to adjust the pH or GH. When the ram dies eventually dies (sometimes down the road), don't replace it and just keep fish that naturally occur in hard water.

 

[Hazze]

@Byron @Colin_T thanks for the help. I will certainly learn from this experience. I can't understand why the medication which is widely available here in the UK didn't come with a warning that it may not be suitable for catfish/scaleless fish. It seems completely irresponsible to me. I hate to think I poisoned them.

The other fish in the tank are 2 rams, 4 mollies (+4 babies soon to be rehomed this weekend), 3 Synodontis Petricola and an albino bristlenose. I intend to get a much larger tank within a year to accommodate the petricola as they grow to be adults.... hopefully I haven't stunted their growth with this experience

Temperature is 27 which fits all species I believe.

I will find out where the Ram's came from today and will make a decision based on that wether I continue to keep them. First I need to sort out the issue with the female. TBH I'm not 100% sure it's fin rot.... what do you think based on the attached image?

The area of concern is the small yellow patch at the base of the tail fin and also the tiny white patch at the base of the dorsal fin. They have miniscule tiny cotton wool like growths on. When I've seen fin rot before it's always started at the end of the fins which is why I'm slightly confused.

Thanks,

Harry

 

[Colin_T]

A good pet shop should tell the customer which medication is the best for the disease and provide you with a formula to work out how much medication to give, and what if any precautions should be taken. Unfortunately not all pet shops have good workers so you don't always get the most informative help from some places.

There are lots of medications that are sold in pet shops and shouldn't be. You can walk into most pet shops in any country and buy anti-biotics off the shelf without any prescription and have no idea how to use them. The amount of anti-biotics sold from pet shops is a real concern especially when 90% of the fish being treated with them don't even have a bacterial infection.

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The catfish should be fine, just do a 75% water change each day for a week to remove any chemicals.

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26C is a better temperature for those fish.

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The ram in the picture has some damage to the anal (bottom) fin and a sore on top of the head in front of the dorsal (top) fin. The sore could be bacterial but it doesn't appear to be red so is not bad at this stage, but it needs to be monitored. The damaged anal fin does not appear to be an advanced case of fin rot so water changes should fix it.

The ram has flared gill flaps (a bit of skin on the edge of the gill covers), which could be from the medication or the hard water, it's normally caused by something in the water rather than hard water.

Do water changes and monitor the fish.

 

[Hazze]

A good pet shop should tell the customer which medication is the best for the disease and provide you with a formula to work out how much medication to give, and what if any precautions should be taken. Unfortunately not all pet shops have good workers so you don't always get the most informative help from some places.

There are lots of medications that are sold in pet shops and shouldn't be. You can walk into most pet shops in any country and buy anti-biotics off the shelf without any prescription and have no idea how to use them. The amount of anti-biotics sold from pet shops is a real concern especially when 90% of the fish being treated with them don't even have a bacterial infection.

----------------------
The catfish should be fine, just do a 75% water change each day for a week to remove any chemicals.

----------------------
26C is a better temperature for those fish.

----------------------
The ram in the picture has some damage to the anal (bottom) fin and a sore on top of the head in front of the dorsal (top) fin. The sore could be bacterial but it doesn't appear to be red so is not bad at this stage, but it needs to be monitored. The damaged anal fin does not appear to be an advanced case of fin rot so water changes should fix it.

The ram has flared gill flaps (a bit of skin on the edge of the gill covers), which could be from the medication or the hard water, it's normally caused by something in the water rather than hard water.

Do water changes and monitor the fish.

Ok got it. I will do that.

The main problem with the ram is actually the tail fin/caudal fin. On the base you can see the yellow blotch on it which also has two small cotton wool like growths similar to the patch on the top of its head. The pic doesn't really show it too well. I will continue to monitor it closely.

This is all really useful, thanks a lot!

 

[Colin_T]

I can't see the bottom of the tail in the picture. If you post another picture it might show up better, otherwise monitor it and see how ti goes.

 

[Hazze]

I can't see the bottom of the tail in the picture. If you post another picture it might show up better, otherwise monitor it and see how ti goes.

2 pics here that I think show it better....

 

[Byron]

I see nothing in those latest photos that needs treatment.

 

[Hazze]

I see nothing in those latest photos that needs treatment.

Ok thanks, that's good to know. So at what point would small white cottony growth's become a concern? At what stage generally should one consider medicating fish? When their behaviour changes?

Thanks!

 

[Colin_T]

White fluffy growths can be excess mucous that is normally fixed by doing big daily water changes.
It can be caused by fungus but there doesn't appear to be any fungus on the fish in the picture.
It can be Lymphocystis, which is a virus that can cause white lumpy growths on the fins. The fish doesn't have that.

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You treat fish with medication when they clearly show a disease or health issue that cannot be fixed with water changes, gravel cleaning and filter cleaning.

Think about yourself. If you scratch yourself, do you run to the doctor and get anti-biotics and stitches for it, or do you wash it and put a band-aid on it and wait to see if it heals?

Fish and all animals have an immune system that can deal with most minor health issues, and even some major ones. There are fossils of dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals that clearly show the animal had broken bones that had healed. There weren't many dinosaur doctors around 60 million years ago so the animal obviously healed itself.

Animals break bones and suffer pretty serious injuries sometimes and they heal up without human intervention or medical help, people do too. I had a number of vertebrate crushed when I was hit by a car and should have been in traction in hospital but they screwed up so I was sent home to recover. Another time I fractured my hip and didn't get treated for that because the doctor was too busy to see me for 3 weeks. By the time I got to the doctor the hip was partially healed and a couple of weeks later it was finished healing. I staggered around the entire time it was fractured.

As long as the injury/ wound does not become infected and can heal up, the animal is normally fine without medical help.

If the animal is malnourished, starving, living in a sewer, or being swarmed by parasites, then there is more chance the animal will die from injuries or diseases.

If the animal is well fed and in good health to begin with, and it is living in a clean environment, then it will usually fight off any diseases or infections without medical intervention.

Old animals or very young animals generally have a weaker immune system and will be more likely to suffer from diseases or injuries. Whereas animals that are aged between their teenage years and middle age are normally fine and have a good immune system.

If your fish shows lumps and bumps and growths that the average person can clearly see, and the aquarium is clean, well filtered and gets regular water changes, and the fish is well fed, then you can look at getting medications to treat it. But you have to know what the disease is first.

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As for the fish in the picture, the edge of the tail and anal fin are a bit frayed but there is no red lines in the fins that indicate advanced fin rot. The frayed edges should heal up by themselves if the tank is kept clean.

The things that do concern me are 2 cream coloured lines on the top half of the caudal peduncle (where the tail fin meets the body), and the little sore just in front of the first dorsal fin ray (top of the head). These don't appear to be infections and are probably nothing to worry about, but they should be monitored to see if they change shape or colour. If they get bigger or go red or black or any colour that is different to the fish, then post more pictures and we will talk about medications.

 

[Hazze]

White fluffy growths can be excess mucous that is normally fixed by doing big daily water changes.
It can be caused by fungus but there doesn't appear to be any fungus on the fish in the picture.
It can be Lymphocystis, which is a virus that can cause white lumpy growths on the fins. The fish doesn't have that.

----------------------
You treat fish with medication when they clearly show a disease or health issue that cannot be fixed with water changes, gravel cleaning and filter cleaning.

Think about yourself. If you scratch yourself, do you run to the doctor and get anti-biotics and stitches for it, or do you wash it and put a band-aid on it and wait to see if it heals?

Fish and all animals have an immune system that can deal with most minor health issues, and even some major ones. There are fossils of dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals that clearly show the animal had broken bones that had healed. There weren't many dinosaur doctors around 60 million years ago so the animal obviously healed itself.

Animals break bones and suffer pretty serious injuries sometimes and they heal up without human intervention or medical help, people do too. I had a number of vertebrate crushed when I was hit by a car and should have been in traction in hospital but they screwed up so I was sent home to recover. Another time I fractured my hip and didn't get treated for that because the doctor was too busy to see me for 3 weeks. By the time I got to the doctor the hip was partially healed and a couple of weeks later it was finished healing. I staggered around the entire time it was fractured.

As long as the injury/ wound does not become infected and can heal up, the animal is normally fine without medical help.

If the animal is malnourished, starving, living in a sewer, or being swarmed by parasites, then there is more chance the animal will die from injuries or diseases.

If the animal is well fed and in good health to begin with, and it is living in a clean environment, then it will usually fight off any diseases or infections without medical intervention.

Old animals or very young animals generally have a weaker immune system and will be more likely to suffer from diseases or injuries. Whereas animals that are aged between their teenage years and middle age are normally fine and have a good immune system.

If your fish shows lumps and bumps and growths that the average person can clearly see, and the aquarium is clean, well filtered and gets regular water changes, and the fish is well fed, then you can look at getting medications to treat it. But you have to know what the disease is first.

----------------------
As for the fish in the picture, the edge of the tail and anal fin are a bit frayed but there is no red lines in the fins that indicate advanced fin rot. The frayed edges should heal up by themselves if the tank is kept clean.

The things that do concern me are 2 cream coloured lines on the top half of the caudal peduncle (where the tail fin meets the body), and the little sore just in front of the first dorsal fin ray (top of the head). These don't appear to be infections and are probably nothing to worry about, but they should be monitored to see if they change shape or colour. If they get bigger or go red or black or any colour that is different to the fish, then post more pictures and we will talk about medications.

Yes that all makes sense!

The white fluffy growths do appear to be getting bigger by the tail fin.... I will attach more pics.... the pics don't really show it properly though. The sore on the top of the head isn't really changing.

I'm continuing with the daily changes. All the fish seem very happy now!

 

[Colin_T]

I think we are talking about the same thing by the tail. Where the tail fin joins the body there are 2 cream coloured lumps. That could be Lymphocystis or the start of an ulcer. Monitor it and if it goes red in the centre and the red spreads outwards, then it's an ulcer. If they remain cream/ white and grow bigger and lumpy, then it's Lymphocystis, which is a stress virus that will clear up in a few months if the fish is well looked after.