Help! Fish Dying - Real Problems

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TransientWolf

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Hi

New member and really appreciate any help you might be able to offer me with a problem I have been having.


Background - Initial Setup

I have a 230 litre (50 gallon) tropical tank established since early January this year. I use a Fluval 305 external filter with fluval ceramic media in the bottom baskets, fluval carbon in the middle baskets, rowa in the middle basket, and fluval ammonia remover in the top baskets.

Following initial cycling of the tank in January I slowly built up the fish stock over a few weeks as follows:

3 x Sunset Wagtail Platys

1 x New Guinea Red Rainbow
1 x New Guinea Boesemani Rainbow

3 x Pentazona Barbs
3 x Golden Barbs


Background - Ammonia Spike

I had no problems at all with water quality until suddenly, after servicing the filter and doing a water change one weekend, got a huge ammonia and nitrite spike. None of the fish died but gills and fins got very red, especially on the barbs. Assumption was I had killed the filter somehow (I did use only aquarium water though).

That was when I added the fluval ammonia remover to sort it out, worked well, and I now change it every 6 weeks or so and refresh it with salt water.

Once the tank had restablised I continued to add fish slowly building up as follows:

3 x Blue Diamond Guppies
3 x Red Variegated Guppies
1 x Bristlenose Catfish

7 x Neon Tetras
2 x New Guinea Red Rainbow

3 x Silver Molly (2 x Female 1 x Male)
1 x King Tiger Peckoltia L066

I built up to the 30 fish and everything seemed fine.

Water quality since then has always been fine with ammonia and nitrite at nil and nitrates at 10-20.

I generally do a 30% water change about every 3 weeks.


Background - White Spot

After I added the King Tiger Plec (my pride and joy) I thought it would be a good idea to get a piece of bogwood in the tank for the plec and the bristlenose. Unfortunately I only soaked it for a couple of hours (subsequently told should soak it for a couple of DAYS!) and about a week later I suddenly noticed a couple of the fish had whitespot, which quickly turned into every fish having whitespot apart from the catfish within about another 24 hours. The tiny barbs were absolutely covered in them, as were the rainbows and the mollys.

The guppies also appeared to start with fin rot to add to the problem.

Water tests confirmed that Ammonia and Nitrite were fine, Nitrate was ok, but the water ph had suddenly leapt completely off the scale i.e. above 8.8. I can only assume this was because of the bogwood and the huge change in ph stressed the fish in a major way.

Following a 30-40% water change I treated the whitespot (removed carbon) with Interpet Anti Whitespot Plus - 3 doses over 9 days and eventually the whitespot seemed to clear up. I also tried to treat the finrot with API Melafix. Unfortunately during this period I lost all the guppies, and then just after they seemed to pull through all the pentazona barbs also died. The Platys were very very lethargic during this period, often just sitting barely moving at the bottom of the tank on the gravel, coming up only for food.


Last 4/5 weeks - odd one off incidents

2 weeks after everything seemed to be fine, I suddenly found a golden barb had lost almost all its weight, and then died. conversely the other two seem to be fatter than usual now.

2 weeks after that I had thought it was an isolated incident and thought I was through the problems. I added a stunning blue neon rainbow fish and although it was not chasing round the tank when I first added it, I assumed this was because it had come from a tank where it had been alone. Unfortunately 36 hours later it was floating completely upside down near the bottom of the tank and couldn't swim. I isolated into a separate bowl and it died shortly afterwards. I assumed this was a problem with the fish rather than the tank.

Started feeding varied diet, supplementing flake food with occasional treats of bloodworm and daphnia.

Everything seemed to start to settle down again and although I had not done a recent water change following treatment of the whitespot, and the water was getting a little green with algae, the fish looked really really happy. Water quality was fine, despite no recent water change the nitrates remained between 10 and 20, fish were zooming around, with only change being one female and one male silver molly turned a dirty yellow colour from the top down rather than the bright silver white when I first got them.


This Weekend

Disaster.

On Saturday suddenly noticed one neon tetra floating and being nipped at by the Rainbows. Fished him out, water checked fine ph 7.8, nil ammonia and nitrite, nitrate 10-20. Very odd. No apparent problem - looked perfectly healthy.

On Sunday real nightmare - start water change, and pull out my shipwreck and my King Tiger Plec falls out, dead, all colour lost, must have died 12/24 hours before. Usually hides a lot so hadn't noticed. Water seemed fine.

Panicked a bit, and concerned not had a water change for several weeks I did a 40% water change last night. Water checked yesterday and today, still no ammonia or nitrite, nitrate 10 and ph 7.8.


Today

All fish seem fine today although not quite as jaunty as they were last week. In particular the platys seem to have gone back to their whitespot days of sitting hiding at the back of the tank resting on the gravel and only coming out for food. Very disconcerting as 24 hours ago they were chasing round the tank like crazy.

Water quality is fine.

At a bit of a loss what to do. :-(


Help

I really don't know what is causing the problems with my tank. I intend to do a 10% water change weekly from now on to see if that helps stabilise things better but I am concerned I might have some kind of undetectable bacterial infection here that is knocking the fish off at random.

Could the fish have got weakened from the previous problems which are just catching up with them? I can understand that with the barb, and maybe the neon but the plec had been strong and healthy up until he suddenly died. Don't understand.

Is the ammonia remover causing the problem? Should I take out now and let the tank manage the ammonia itself?

Is there something else going on I need to sort out?

Any help would be hugely appreciated. I am tearing my hair out trying to keep these guys well and happy! Only my Bristlenose seems completely unfazed although his fins look to have taken on a bit of orangey red colour, although not sure if that is part of his colouring (his spots are a dull orangey colour).

Cheers

TW
 
Concerned about the fish losing weight, did it look wasted away, and was the fish eating, plus you have had some bacterial infections in the tank.
 
Thanks for the reply.

Only the one golden barb suddenly overnight seemed completely wasted away and cadaverous (but still yellow) and had been eating prior to that as far as I know. None of the others have gone like that. The Plec was absolutely fine until he suddenly dissapeared and died.

Your link was about loaches?
 
Sorry about that stupid me, right wasting away can mean fish tb or internal parasites, both are nasty and are hard to cure, the fish that wasted away did it also get a bent spine, was the anus red and inflamed or anything prutruding from the anus.
http://www.4qd.org/Aqua/disease/tb.html
 
Mmmm no not really just looked a thin and wasted version of himself overnight. No arching, no other obvious signs, and the only one to have been affected like that. The Blue neon rainbow I added that dies 36 hours later was perfectly normal apart from being completely upside down. No wasting away at all. Neither the neon or the plec this weekend had any sign of wasting. :-(
 
Lets get back to basics.
Please test your tapwater.
Every test you have and leave a sample to stand overnight & retest pH in the morning.
Every test you have on the tank too.
What substrate?
Bogwood can't make pH go up! Something else is going on. Any rocks?
I, personally, hate the use of ammonia fixers & rhowaphos etc unless they are addressing a known problem. They often seem to be used as props rather than addressing the cause.

What water conditioners, chemicals have you used? Do you have any carbon?

IMO you should remove all "props" from the filter & add some new carbon.
This is to clean up what you have and get actual reading over the next few days.
You have a highly stocked tank for such a new set up & you have been lax with the water changes - this has now come back to bite.

Out of interest , how did you do the initial cycle?
 
Just read SKimpy's article on internal bacteria.

Might be relevent that the fish for some weeks have had very long stringy faeces, and the female molly's look like they have dark insides through the wight skin - almost thought they might be pregnant once.

Is that internal bacteria? And how should I treat?
 
Well with the fish wasting away like that you have fish tb in your tank or internal parasites, but with some of the other bacterial problems, it points towards more fish tb.
Long stringy white poo is contipation, bacterial infections, and internal parasites.

A very strong antibiotic which is going to wipe your bacteria colony out in the filter, minocycline or tetracycline, though to get them depends on your location.

Look at fish tb.
http://www.neuro.uoregon.edu/ionmain/Fish_...s%20(Fish%20TB)
 
OK

Tapwater fine - ph 7.8 everything else normal.
I have tested and stood. ph 7.8, Ammonia nil, Nitite Nil, Nitrate 10
Gravel substrate
A few rocks but there since beginning
Ammonia remover was left in as seemed a good idea but was only added to cure the initial problem. Rowa is in as naturally high phosphate in water where I am. Recommended by two seperate local fish shops.
New carbon went in yesterday
Use Aquaplus conditioner with water changes.
Agree lax with water changes, although was told not to change whilst treating for whitespot and for a week or so afterwards. All water readings though remain fine.
Advice on stocking appreciated - with 7 tiny neons, the barbs were all tiny too, I had not thought a problem. Now only 19 fish - too many?
Initial cycle was 2 weeks with API Cycle then added 3 platys, waited two weeks and added 2 rainbows.

Wilder - thanks - only one fish wasted - would that really point to TB? Wouldn't I have had more wasting or obvious signs?
 
Only takes one fish to infect the whole tank, sorry, not hundred percent it could be fish tb, as it could be internal parasites.
But you have lost a lot of fish so you have something nasty in your tank.
 
Thanks for your help.

Do you know where I could get minocycline or tetracycline in Peterborough UK? Also if this will kill the filter will that not create bigger problems with ammonia and nitrite spikes as the filter cycles?

Is it worth trating with a general internal bacteria treatment first, if so what would you recommend, and I assume I need to remove carbon again?

God this is complicated stuff :-(
 
Only will be able to get tetracycline and minocycline from a vet in the uk, if it is tb i doubt a shelf bacterial med will do anything, sorry.
Your best bet is a vet.
 
Ok thanks for all this.

I will speak to my vet for advice and see if worth treating. Presume only real alternative is to break down the tank completely, euthanase the fish, and scrub everything with disenfectant and rinse well then start from scratch?

If I do nothing, continue with weekly water changes, add no new fish, and don;t get any more losses will that tell me anything? Like if it is fish tb will I definately get some kind of loss and if I don;t then it's not fish tb?

Sorry to keep asking so many questions.
 
Did you say a livebearer went a mucky brown colour, as velvet can come in brown to yellowish dusting on the fish, plus they can get bacterial infections on top, plus they can waste away with velvet.

This is what you said.
with only change being one female and one male silver molly turned a dirty yellow colour from the top down rather than the bright silver white when I first got them.


http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/heal...thprotist.shtml

I would try a shelf bacterial med for now, as parasites cause bacterial problems, and if that dosn't do anything i think i would get in touch with a vet, and if you lose another fish i would take it to a vet to have an autopsy done.
 
Thanks

Molly doesn;t look like velvet - the skin has just changed colour in the skin not as in a coating.

I have ordered Interpet Anti Internal Bacteria and will use that together with weekly water changes and see how I get on. If another fish dies I will take to vet for autopsy as you suggest to be sure if it is tb or not. If it is I am inclined to strip the tank down and start afresh to be certain to get rid of everything although would be a shame.

Think I need a quarantine tank but no space for another tank and you should be able to trust fish shops that you are not getting infection brought in.

Ho hum.

Thanks again - will keep you posted.

TW
 

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