Guppy X Endler

[pica_nuttalli]

guppy x endler hybrids: are they sterile? i didn't think so, but imouse over in livebearers said that they were, so now i've got doubts...

enlightenment, go!

 

[Lynden]

The vast, vast, vast majority of so-called female endlers have reticulata blood in their veins. Im not fully convinced that there are actually pure endler females, I think that since guppies are so often mixed with endlers, that the endlers simply did not need females because of their ability to hybridize with the female reticulatas. I have a tank with all home grown guppies, there was once an endler with them, and now, an eon after his death, there is two identical endler males in the tank now. "Endler" females bear no resemblance to the males, and certainly do not differ from reticulata females in any way.

So if the hybrids were sterile, we would not have very many endlers now, would we?

 

[Synirr]

Pure female endlers do exist, even if it is very common to find hybrids, period. If you do find hybrids, the males are carrying to exact same genes as their female siblings, so I don't understand why you seem to think the females are somehow more hybrid than the males? Are you just going by looks, or what? Wild type female guppies also don't look very much like the males, and females from closely-related groups of livebearers look almost completely identical. I hate to tell ya Chestnut, but I think this slightly altered version of your theory that endlers are a species composed entirely of males is just as bogus as it was in its original form.

To answer your question pica, no, they are not sterile. As you probably already know, they are so closely related to guppies that there's debate over whether or not endlers are even a separate species at all

 

[dwarfgourami]

My young guppy male is growing absolutely beautiful endler markings on his sides, something that did not show in either of his parents. Seems pretty clear that somewhere back in his family there must have been an endler ancestor- and that the offspring of that union was not sterile.

Chestnut's theory relies among other things on the assumption that endlers and guppies always coexist in the wild- can anyone enlighten us on their geographical distribution?

 

[Synirr]

Guppies are primarily found in Trinidad and Brazil, whereas Endlers are from Venezuela, but their paths do cross in several regions. While Googling this info I found a pretty neat site illustrating the great diversity in guppies, even from one region of a stream to another:

http/www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/sex/guppy/gallery.html

 

[dwarfgourami]

Cheers Synirr. You see what I'm getting at? Unless endlers' and guppies' paths ALWAYS cross, then there must be some endlers' females somewhere, otherwise the species could not keep going where there were no guppies to have their babies.

I seem to remember reading about some species (fish or rat I can't even remember) that got along without males, as the females were self-producing and only needed the stimulation of mating with males of another related species. But that is substantially different from getting along without females.

 

[Synirr]

Hey dwarfgourami, I heard about that too! It was a species of livebearer I'm pretty sure... possibly mollies?

 

[Lynden]

Its the Amazon Molly, Poecilia maculata. There is a species of reptile that is stimulated by other females


Bogus, you say? Under the conditions I have stated before, its not impossible. Life is a very strange thing, it follows very few molds. Scientists have discovered, and recently actually seen for themselves, that there is a large colony of shrimps, tubeworms and crabs, and even a few species of fish, that live completely independent from the sun. They get their energy indirectly from volcano vents. Sounds pretty "bogus", does it not?

We will have to wait until someone proves my theory wrong. So far the evedence points to a 30 degree angle, not the needed 180 degrees

 

[dwarfgourami]

Its the Amazon Molly, Poecilia maculata. There is a species of reptile that is stimulated by other females


Bogus, you say? Under the conditions I have stated before, its not impossible. Life is a very strange thing, it follows very few molds. Scientists have discovered, and recently actually seen for themselves, that there is a large colony of shrimps, tubeworms and crabs, and even a few species of fish, that live completely independent from the sun. They get their energy indirectly from volcano vents. Sounds pretty "bogus", does it not?

We will have to wait until someone proves my theory wrong. So far the evedence points to a 30 degree angle, not the needed 180 degrees

Please not that I did NOT say that the findings of reptiles stimulated by others are bogus. Nobody said bogus. I know strange facts about nature are emerging all the time, doesn't surprise me at all.

I merely pointed out the pretty obvious fact that if your theory (of non-existing female endlers) depends on male endlers impregnating female guppies, then there must BE female guppies wherever the species of endlers is present in more than one generation. Non? That seems to me like logic and logic unlike biology does not change.

 

[Lynden]

I post in a way that everyone can get to their question's answer. So, i was reffering to the way that you said that my theory was bogus, not the part about the lizards. Sorry about that mistake

From now on I will respect you as someone who is not suprised by new life facts. Sorry to sound rude )

Sorry I screwed up on the name for Amazon molly. Its P. formosa.

 

[dwarfgourami]

That's ok.

Do note that I did not say that your theory was bogus. It is not a term I would ever use in any kind of academic discussion. In fact, I cannot find it anywhere in this thread. Somebody else may have used it elsewhere in the forum, it certainly wasn't me.

I said that a community where the females used males of another species for pure sexual stimulation without any addition of genetic material seemed to me substantially different from one where the genetic material of males overrides that of females of a different species. Substantially different. Not bogus.

And you still have not answered my question. Do you know that endlers only exist in the wild where there are guppy communities? I know nothing about endlers, very little about genetics, but 20 years in academe have given me the tenacity of a bulldog when it comes to asking the same question over and over again until everybody is sick of it.

 

[Lynden]

I hate to tell ya Chestnut, but I think this slightly altered version of your theory that endlers are a species composed entirely of males is just as bogus as it was in its original form.

Here it is! Good ol' Synirr.

20 years in academe have given me the tenacity of a bulldog when it comes to asking the same question over and over again until everybody is sick of it.

I like your style! Everybody tells me that thats what i do too. Therefore, i am not perturbed by actions of this sort.

Guppies inhabit virtually all of the waterways in northern South and southern Central america. There are ditches in venezuela that teem with guppies. Mostly because they have been introduced to virtually all of the northern area of the continent because their favourite food is mosquitos. So have endlers I imagine, since, well, they basically are guppies. So this means that they must cross-breed. Alot. Therefore, your question has been answered. They do overlap often.

 

[imouse]

To simplify..
Guppy to Guppy = Guppy (male & female breedable)
Endler to Endler = Endler (male & female breedable)
Male Guppy to Female Endler = F1(a) hybrid (male sterile, female breedable*)
Male Endler to Female Guppy = F1(B) Hybrid (male & female breedable, male fry carry fathers gene and become carbon copies colour wise, females copy mothers colouration of tail fin)
*the female product of this cross can be imprinted upon to produce genetic variables from first mating
the male portrays the colourations of an Endler with Fancy Guppy tail finnage. If fry is eventually mated with brother/father, this also results in sterility of future males (F1(c )Hybrids)
Guppy to Molly, allegedly possible but i've never seen the results or facts about, if anyone has a link......


Also, to my mind, the Endler isn't a guppy at all, may be a distant cousin, but not a guppy. Maybe the guppy is just a poor mans version of the Endler, ever heard of fools gold??




mouse

 

[Synirr]

I hate to tell ya Chestnut, but I think this slightly altered version of your theory that endlers are a species composed entirely of males is just as bogus as it was in its original form.

Here it is! Good ol' Synirr.

Haha, yeah, it was me, and here's why:
If an endler male mates with a guppy female the offspring is no longer an endler or a guppy, it is a hybrid. It doesn't matter which parent it resembles the most, as this can be effected by imprinting and whatnot, 50% of its DNA is from one parents and 50% is from the other. Yes, a lot of interbreeding goes on and this is why there is a lot of debate about whether or not endlers are their own separate species, but the fact is that 100% endler females do exist, and 100% endler males do mate with them... if they didn't, we wouldn't have endlers at all, we'd have guppies with endler DNA... so basically just another strain of guppies.

I have heard of the critters living along the thermal vents of the ocean floor, but that's not nearly as unbelieveable as male-only endlers. Genetics don't work like that.
Edit: Have some awesome footage of hydrothermal vents.

 

[Lynden]

I sorta think they are a guppy subspecies, and in that case, my theory is possible, but for the most part, this has been abandoned. Thanks for the footage, too, although sadly I cannot view it since my internet blows donkey balls.

See ya. B)