Green Tint+ Trouble With Parameters

[lindabrooke]

I moved at the beginning of August a few doors down and had to tear down my tank+set it up that same day. I changed from a fluorite bottom and sand cap to a soil bottom and fluorite cap when I set it up again. My water looks as if its tinged green, which was never an issue before I tore it down. I had read this was a Phosphate issue, how do I take care of that?

• Current levels:
• PH: 7.6-7.8
• Nirite: 0
• Nitrate: 0
• Ammonia: 1.0
• Temp: 76-78
• 65 gallon freshwater with a handful of plants and driftwood
• 4 Angelfish, 2 black skirted tetras, 1 misc. tetra, 1 oto
• Cascade 1000 Cannister Filter

I saved about 10 gallons of water when I tore it down, as well as the water in the canister. I'm in a tough spot here. I know I need to get my Ammonia down, and I also need to get my Nitrate up, and take care of the Phosphate issue. I am also interested in hearing any suggestion you guys may have on a cap for the fluorite, since I'm not too happy with the look. I would like to try to do a black cap, like black sand? Thanks for all the help guys!


 

 

[Byron]

Last item first.  I would remove the Flourite completely, and then cap the soil with sand.  I say this because I do not believe Flourite is of any benefit to plants; I had it on its own in my 70g for two years and the plants were no better than the same species in my sand and gravel substrate tanks and perhaps even a tad less nice.  Plus the Flourite is rough [I had the gravel, the sand may be different], and it made a real mess with the barbels and mouths of my corys.  They recovered after being moved into the sand tank.  And I have since torn this tank down and it now has a sand substrate and the plants are just as good and perhaps better.  Just so you know I have experience with this product.
 
To the move.  Saving the water has no benefit, but if you kept the canister filter without rinsing the media, that was good.  That plus the plants should control ammonia/nitrite.  As it has been six or seven weeks now, and with nitrite and nitrate at zero, you may be OK, but the ammonia is high...you are sure it is 1 ppm?  Are you using any ammonia detoxing agent, like Prime as your water conditioner, or similar?  And BTW, nitrate at zero is fine, this is actually common in many low-tech planted tanks.  Mine runs around 5 in one tank, and zero to five in the others.  This is not an issue.
 
To the green water.  This is most likely due to unicellular algae, not phosphate.  And this is likely due to nutrients in the soil; what did you use?  Are you adding any plant fertilizers?  I will assume you light is as before, and things were presumably OK then.  Blackouts are said to deal with green water, but if the cause is not rectified, it will likely come back again.
 
A caution on the Black Skirt Tetra...these are nippy tetra sometimes, and without a larger group (6+) this is even more likely.  But they should not be housed with angelfish, as this is a real temptation.  I would remove them since there are only two, and select a calmer tetra.  The Rosy Tetra and Roberti Tetra are ideal with angels, as they add some colour, are not too small to be eaten (or the attempt made), and in a group of 7-9 quite peaceful.  There are some others too.
 
Byron.

 

[lindabrooke]

The reason why I removed the sand initially the first time was because I didn't like the look of it, I wanted it to look more "natural" and the sand was starting to get a brown tinge to it, which I just thought it looked dirty. I have been considering adding sand back to it though. In order for me to remove the flourite I would probably have to tear down the tank again, do you think it would be okay to just add a few inch sand cap on top of everything?

My nitrate before the move was around 10ish, I was just concerned that since mine it at 0 still it means it hasn't "cycled". Especially with the ammonia being high. I do use de-chlorinator, I will remeasure my ammonia in a few minutes and see if 1.0 was accurate, but I even had another set of eyes look at it.

I used Scotts Premium Organic Topsoil. No plant fertilizers. I can do a blackout in my tank, I usually run it for 4-5 hours a night. How long should I do the blackout for?

The black skirted tetras are actually fairly docile, I haven't observed much nipping behavior at all with any of my fish. If I notice them start to get nippy, I'll definitely remove them. I do have one of the Roberti Tetras (the misc tetra) and plan on adding a school soon! They're fun fish, and I've been wanting a fun school for a while. I do like the rosy tetras and will look in to getting those next time I'm at the fish store. I have been hesitant to add any fish at the moment though since my levels (at least the ammonia) are too high and I worry. Thank you for your reply and your help!

 

[Byron]

The reason why I removed the sand initially the first time was because I didn't like the look of it, I wanted it to look more "natural" and the sand was starting to get a brown tinge to it, which I just thought it looked dirty. I have been considering adding sand back to it though. In order for me to remove the flourite I would probably have to tear down the tank again, do you think it would be okay to just add a few inch sand cap on top of everything?

 
This brown appearance is something I noticed with my Flourite gravel too.  Quite a messy appearance actually.  I thought about the tear down when I was responding previously.  Now is the time to do it, before things are settled again. The problem with mixing substrates is that the smallest will sink to the bottom; I do not know how small the Flourite sand is, but I suspect it may not be as small as regular sand, so this would occur.
 

My nitrate before the move was around 10ish, I was just concerned that since mine it at 0 still it means it hasn't "cycled". Especially with the ammonia being high. I do use de-chlorinator, I will remeasure my ammonia in a few minutes and see if 1.0 was accurate, but I even had another set of eyes look at it.
 

 
With planted tanks, the "cycling" still occurs but is usually undetectable.  Nitrate will probably appear eventually, but it should remain low and 10 ppm is fine.  Which dechlorinator?  What I am getting at here, is that if you are using a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia (it will say this on the label) then it does so by changing the toxic ammonia into harmless ammonium, and this with most products does not later reverse.  So the plants and bacteria take up the ammonium just the same, and there is no harm to the fish.  With plants I wouldn't expect to see ammonia at all.  But previously I probably should have asked what the plants are, as fast growers (stem plants and especially floating plants) are best for this.
 

I used Scotts Premium Organic Topsoil. No plant fertilizers. I can do a blackout in my tank, I usually run it for 4-5 hours a night. How long should I do the blackout for?
 

 
I would suggest this is the source of the green water, a sudden release of organics and nutrients from the soil.  I've never done blackouts, but I believe most suggest 2-3 days and it must be a total blackout; the tank can be sort of covered with a blanket or something to keep it dark.  But as I mentioned previously, it may return afterwards.  I would like to have some of the soil-experienced aquarists enter this discussion, they would have better advice.  I've never gone down the soil road as I have not been able to see benefits outweighing the risks.
 

The black skirted tetras are actually fairly docile, I haven't observed much nipping behavior at all with any of my fish. If I notice them start to get nippy, I'll definitely remove them. I do have one of the Roberti Tetras (the misc tetra) and plan on adding a school soon! They're fun fish, and I've been wanting a fun school for a while. I do like the rosy tetras and will look in to getting those next time I'm at the fish store. I have been hesitant to add any fish at the moment though since my levels (at least the ammonia) are too high and I worry.
 

 
Keep a very close eye on them; when kept in less than 5-6, they can become stressed over time and then suddenly snap, as it were.  And they are known fin nippers.
 
Yes, I would prefer seeing the ammonia at zero before additions.
 

Byron.

 

[lindabrooke]

This is the type of water conditioner I use: http/www.petsmart.com/fish/water-care-conditioning/top-fin-tap-water-aquarium-dechlorinator-water-conditioner-zid36-17578/cat-36-catid-300006?_t=pfm%3Dcategory
 
And I believe this is the fluorite: http/www.amazon.com/Flourite-7-kg-15-4-lbs/dp/B00025YSB0

Should I get an ammonia reducer to add to my tank? I would ideally not like to spend the money on Eco Complete but would that be a suggested route? Or just using the Scotts Top Soil with sand cap? I know I already asked but I just want to confirm- would it be possible for me to just add a sand cap on top of what I already have? I'd prefer not to tear down the whole tank if possible. When I had a sand cap before, the sand was pretty good about staying on top.

I have a few Amazon Swords, a few Anubias, a few others that I can't quite remember the name of.

 

[Byron]

This is the type of water conditioner I use: http/www.petsmart.com/fish/water-care-conditioning/top-fin-tap-water-aquarium-dechlorinator-water-conditioner-zid36-17578/cat-36-catid-300006?_t=pfm%3Dcategory
 
And I believe this is the fluorite: http/www.amazon.com/Flourite-7-kg-15-4-lbs/dp/B00025YSB0
Should I get an ammonia reducer to add to my tank? I would ideally not like to spend the money on Eco Complete but would that be a suggested route? Or just using the Scotts Top Soil with sand cap? I know I already asked but I just want to confirm- would it be possible for me to just add a sand cap on top of what I already have? I'd prefer not to tear down the whole tank if possible. When I had a sand cap before, the sand was pretty good about staying on top.
I have a few Amazon Swords, a few Anubias, a few others that I can't quite remember the name of.

 
That conditioner does not deal with ammonia.  Though it might have some impact, since it does handle chloramine.  Not sure if someone knows about this...
 
That is the "brown" Flourite, what I had except mine was the black.  If you mix sand over this, the sand will slowly disappear down through the Flourite.
 
Eco Complete is much the same thing as Flourite.  From my experience (and other members have stated the same), I would not waste money on this.  I really do not know how these products are sujpposed to be effective...one has to fertilize exactly the same as with plain gravel or sand, so I just cannot see any benefit.  And they are expensive.  I spent $180 to do my 70g with Flourite; after two years of no benefits I tore it down and replaced it with play sand for $12 and the plants are just as good if not better.
 
At this stage I would not worry about the ammonia.  I would however suggest some floating plants.  These are very fast growing, meaning they take up a lot of ammonia (ammonium is the preferred form of nitrogen, not nitrate, of aquatic plants).  If you were in Canada I would send you a bunch; but I won't send plants into the US any longer as the delay at the border results in dead plants.
 
Are you really set on the soil?  Now is the time to think through all of this.
 
Byron.

 

[lindabrooke]

I'm definitely not set on the soil, I was just trying to go the easiest route possible (tearing down the whole tank vs putting sand on top of everything) but it doesn't seem like that's going to be an option. What floating plants would you recommend? I have always liked the way they looked, I'm excited to try them out in my tank.
 
I used play sand before and did like it, hopefully adding new sand will allow me to enjoy the look again.

 

[Byron]

I now have play sand in six tanks; the seventh has fine gravel which suits the fish and aquascape better so I've left it.  It has been three years since I started changing over to sand in the other tanks, and I wish I'd done it sooner; it is a nice substrate, and the Quikrete Play Sand has the added benefit of being very close to many of the natural sands in the Amazon in appearance.  My wild corys certainly love it.
 
Floating plants.  Water Sprite (Ceratopteris cornuta) is one of my favourites.  It has large dangling root masses that many fish will browse for microscopic live food, spawn in, or use for bubblenests.  Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes) is another, with smaller roots and of a different sort.  The appearance of the roots varies from plant species to plant species so this is another way to affect the overall aquascape.  Some mention a dwarf water lettuce, but there is actually no such distinct species; the plant will grow in size according to conditions.  I've had this for about two years now, in three or four tanks, and the largest it has achieved in one tank is about 3-4 inches across, but it remains around 1 inch in the others, generally speaking.
 
Frogbit is very nice particularly if you can get the true tropical species (Limnobium laevigatum); I have the temperate species that comes and goes a bit because of the constant temperature in the tank.  Salvinia molesta is a small plant, something like duckweed but larger and much more striking with its silvery green leaves that seem to shimmer.  Nice little plant if you can get it.
 
Others have tried to convince me to try a soil substrate, but frankly here again I cannot see long-term benefits.  I have researched this quite a bit, including Diana Walstad's articles and her excellent book (excellent because of all the other beneficial scientific data, not so much for the soil issue).  The benefit of soil is having considerable CO2 from the start.  When you use plain sand or gravel, it takes a few months for the organics to build in the substrate, and the process of breaking down these organics by bacteria is where the majority of CO2 occurs, much more than from respiration of fish, plants and bacteria.  Diana herself even admits that after one year, any plain sand substrate tank will have equal benefits to soil.  And after a year, the soil may need to be re-done.  Sand and gravel substrate tanks can last years if adequately maintained along the way.  The nutrients in the soil do give out, and the only way to replenish them is new soil, or fertilizers; I prefer the latter with sand/gravel as it avoids the risks of soil and the plant growth in my experience is good.  But my basic approach is fish tanks that have live plants, rather than planted tanks with few or no fish.
 
Byron.