Gill Fluke? Sterazin? Parasites? Help Please ! !

[Tonysamms]

[SIZE=medium]Hi Everyone,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I am new to the forum and I need your help please.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I have a problem with my male angel fish. I have also just lost my male lace gourami.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My tank is a Juwel 180lt bow front with gravel, bog wood and lots of plants. Temperature of 77 degrees, external filter (1400 lph) and aeration via an air pump through a sandstone bar. My tank is currently PH 7, Amonia 0, nitrate 0 just tested by my LFS where he said water was spot on. I change approx 20% every 10 days.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My Fish[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Gold Angel  -  9cm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Marble Angel  - 7cm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Black Angel  - 7cm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Flying Fox  - 9cm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Sucking Loach x 2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Corys x 2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Neon x 1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Clown Loach x 4 – 5cm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]About 3 months ago I saw my gold angel coughing vigorously, as I watched it coughed up what seemed like quite a bit blood for a fish of that size, the blood came out of its mouth and its right gill. I watched it closely over the next week and it seemed fine. The next thing I noticed was a few weeks ago when I noticed the gold angel breathing heavily and the black angel had what looked like some scales missing on its side (I dismissed this as this fish is just getting to the stage where it fights for dominance over the other female, quite often  fighting with the female black marble angel, and so i thought it was battle scars). Over the next few days the pectoral fin on the right side of the gold angel started degrading, after many water changes and no luck I used Melafix treatment in the tank. This also made no difference so I changed the water again. In the mean time I noticed my adult gourami had an enlarged vent and the clowns were trying to feed off it, also looked like they were wanting to eat its slime coat. I placed it in a material breeding trap to stop the clowns getting at it. After lots of reading on the internet I decided that my fish had gill flukes/internal parasites. I asked at my LFS and ended up buying Sterazin and treating my tank (forgot to mention that I removed the charcoal before the Melafix). The same day I treat the tank with the first dose, the gourami, went berserk, lashing about the place, jumped out of the breeding trap and sped from side to side for about 30 seconds before dying immediately after L[/SIZE].  I’m now on day 3 of the course, the gold angel, although still breathing heavy is not half as bad as he was but is still twitching and coughing periodically. The black angel now has a new small white patch on the opposite side as well as the two from before. Everything else seems fine.  After more internet trawling I found something saying that Sterazin does not kill the parasites. My next stop was your forum!
[SIZE=medium]I am at a loss as to what has happened, I have not introduced anything into the tank for over 6 months and do regular water changes....please help !!![/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I will try and upload a few photos to help.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]Many thanks, Tony[/SIZE]

 

[Tonysamms]

The black angel.

 

[WILDER]

These are the signs for skin and gill flukes.
 
Signs of skin and gills flukes are.
Red inflamed gills or pale gills with excess slime. Sometimes bleeding gills,
Opaque body with excess slime.
Flicking and rubbing against objects in the tank.
Laboured breathing or gasping at the surface of the tank.
Swimming in a jerky movement.
Spitting out. food.
Weighloss sometimes.
Erratic swimming, darting around the tank..
Sores on the body of the fish. 
 
When you say the vent is enlarged to you mean anus?
Do any fish look very thin with sunken in bellies. or bloated?
Any signs of worms sticking out of the anus..

 

[Tonysamms]

Thanks for the reply,
 
Yes the anus was larger and red before he died, he was also a bit bloated. None of the other fish are very thin and there are no signs of worms. The gold male worries me the most at the moment due to the heavy gasping and the one large gill.

 

[WILDER]

Sorry for the short reply having lap top problems.
 
It does not sound like flukes to me if there showing none of the above symptoms apart from heavy breathing which can
mean many other things.
 
An enlarged sore anus can also be due to dropsy, bacterial, internal parasites.
 
The bleeding from the gills and mouth could of been internal bleeding, or something lodged in the fish mouth,.
Is there any white around the edges of the gill. Any sores on the gill area.. Or excess slime.
Does the fish rub the gills on objects in the tank?
The white patches on the fish body do they look fluffy in appearance, or just bleached out areas.
Any excess slime on the body. Any redness around the patch or inside the patched area,

 

[WILDER]

Also is the fish still eating well?
Is the fish acting lethargic, also laying on the bottom of the tank for long periods?

 

[Tonysamms]

The right gill is very red inside, there is only about 1/3 of the pectoral fin left but the Melafix seemed to put a stop to the deteriation of that, there are no slime problems or sores on the gills and also no rubbing, but he does flick and cough periodically. The white patches on the black angel dont look fluffy, no slime either.
 
Is there anyway I can upload better pictures (above 300kb?), I need to go to work for a few hours now but will be back on later.
 
Thanks again for your help

 

[WILDER]

Is there no other fish now showing any symptoms. If so I would take the bacterial route.The only problem
is the fish night be to far gone to save. The medication could make the fish breathing worse.
Remove the sterazin by a water change, adding new black carbon to the filter for a day.
Water change again before adding the medication.
UK bacterial meds are only useful on mild bacteria infections. Once the bacteria infection  really takes
hold of the fish the medication won't help. You then need antibiotics which are only available by a vet.
Antibiotics should only be used in a hospital tank due to wiping the bacteria colony out in the filter.
 
There a medication called anti internal bacteria medication by interpet. You can double dose in severe cases. But with the
fish already having trouble breathing I don't think that might be a good option.
Don;t forget to increase aeration due to the medication reducing 02 levels in the tank.
 
If anymore symptoms start to arise don't hesitate to posting back on this thread,
Keep a look out for any fish showing signs of flicking and rubbing, darting, erratic swimming,
heavy breathing, gasping at surface of tank, weightloss, inflamed, enlarged anus. Long stingy white waste.,
 
Also I would advise investing in some liquid test kits of your own in ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and ph.
 
Sorry for you loss.
R.I.P.
As for the enlarged picture not to sure on how to do it on this forum. Sorry.
Maybe start a thread in tropical discussion

 

[WILDER]

There one more thing you could do but you would need someone to help you.
Wrap the fish in a wet clean cloth soaked in tank water. Get a magnifying glass.. Ask someone to
gently hold the fish down for you while you inspect the gills.
pull the giil flap gently to take a look to see if you can see any tiny white worms in the red inflamed sore area of the gill

 

[Tonysamms]

Thank you very much for your help. I will try what you suggest and get back to you.

 

[Tonysamms]

Hi,

Just thought I would come on to update you on my problem.

I still have both angels after almost 5 Weeks ( Since posting ). The male gold angel is still gulping/gasping but is eating fine, although he sometimes coughs it back up, the only change is he's lost some body weight and is looking thin. Feeding is flake and frozen bloodworm ( which he loves).

The black angel is still fighting fit but the marks on her side are bigger and worse now. It's not like fungus as it looks like it's eating away at her skin, she has started to rub on plants for about the last week. The only thing I have tried recently are salt baths (2 tbsp in 1 gallon) black angel for 20 mins, gold angel for 10 mins because of breathing.

I have just tested the water. Ph 7, ammonia 0, nitrate 0, nitrite 0

Clowns, corys,shrimp etc are all fine.

Any ideas ??

Thank you

 

[Tonysamms]

I have just added these pictures which may shed more light on things ...I have also marked the picture of the gold angel where skin deterioration has occured.
 
Thank you for any help or pointers

Sorry, having trouble getting them all posted

Last one

The tank they live in...

 

[star4]

If the golden angel is having breathing difficulties then medication and salt are not going to help, the only suggestion would be a separate tank and daily waterchanges. The black angel has me worried as I rescued and angel with a similar looking problem, but far more advanced than yours, (it had a hole through its body), You will need a very strong antibacterial medication, myaxazin did reduce it on the angel I had the problem with,but sadly never cured it. You will need to check if myaxazin is ok with clown loach, off the top of my head I dont think it is, so it might be a hospital tank for the black angel too.
 
Wizzing back over your stocking list, you say you have 2 sucking loach??? are these chinese algae eaters or plecs. Algae eaters are known for stripping the slime coat off deep bodied fish such as angels, the marks on the black one could be that.
 
Now the nagging bit, your tank is over stocked and you need a much larger tank for clownloach. sorry

 

[Tonysamms]

Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have room for two hospital tanks due to kids and a building project but I may be able to set one up. I will get it setup and try the myaxazin with the black angel. The loaches are Chinese algae eaters but never go anywhere near the angels, also the problem has progressed as my first picture shows. I know that the clowns will grow, they are fine presently (only 6cm each atm). I am currently building a 8' x 20' fish room which will include a 6' tank for the clowns....should be complete in 4-5 months!

 

[star4]

You could also try some of this food....
 
http/www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-Grams-DISCUS-SPECIAL-GRAN-WITH-GARLIC-SPIRULINA-/120794675977?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item1c1fec7b09
 
The garlic helps boost the immune systems which may help them fight off whatever the problem is. I use this went I get sick fish in, its very good and gets fussy eaters eating. It might be worth trying this with the gold angel while you treat the black on in the hospital tank.
 
 
(I just spotted in the picture of the black angel the clown loach, aaawwww its tiny and so cute. Sorry I miss read 4-5 cm as 4-5 clown loach)