German Rams and Kribs?

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Emergency90

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Hey All,

Planning out a new community planted tank (29 gallons). I'm curious if its feasible to keep a pair of GBRs and Kribs in the same tank? I had mating Kribs in my old tank, and really loved them, but would like to try something new, hence the GBRs. But at the same time I think I will miss having Kribs around! Any thoughts on whether this would work?

Other fish would likely include some cardinal tetras and cories.

Thanks!
 
I would have one or the other, not both.

It is not a good idea to mix cichlids from different continents as they are unlikely to understand each other's signals. And I don't think the floor of a 29 gall tank is big enough for both.

Rams would go with well cardinals and cories as they are all south American, though most cories wouldn't like the higher temperature needed by rams. Cardinals would be OK with the higher temps., as would cories like sterbai.
 
Essjay got it all in one.

I will only add that if you do decide on rams, you need to get a bonded pair. Any female and any male thrown together will not always accept each other.

Byron.
 
Thanks for all the advice. I will most likely go with Rams to try something new. How should I go about finding a bonded pair? Will I be able to tell just by observing at the LFS? I took a look at buying online via Aquabid, perhaps that is a better move to guarantee a bonded and breeding pair. Also, if I go through the LFS, would it be better to buy a group rather than a pair?
 
Thanks for all the advice. I will most likely go with Rams to try something new. How should I go about finding a bonded pair? Will I be able to tell just by observing at the LFS? I took a look at buying online via Aquabid, perhaps that is a better move to guarantee a bonded and breeding pair. Also, if I go through the LFS, would it be better to buy a group rather than a pair?

What I will write applies to either ram species, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (the common or blue ram and the several varieties developed by selective breeding such as the German Blue) and Mikrogeophagus altispinosus (the Bolivian Ram).

Like most if not all cichlids, to varying degrees, rams must select their own mates. I have put together male/female and had a few spawnings before the male turned and killed the female. Nothing is guaranteed, but bonded pairs tend to be more successful.

Colouration and finnage are not always reliable indicators of gender, particularly in immature fish as one generally sees in stores. If there is a group in the store tank, remain very quiet in front of the tank for a while (10-15 minutes or longer). You will easily spot males, as they will be "charging" at one another, not usually actually engaging in physical contact, but sort of poking towards each other. Once you see a nice male, look for females close to him; these will usually be completely ignored by the male, and the female closest is probably one with which he will bond. The longer you observe, the more reliable this can be.

Acquiring a group yourself and letting this take place in your home aquarium will work, and in a correctly-aquascaped tank of sufficient size you might even get a pair forming and spawning, which would be an obvious sign of bonding. The problem with this is that you then have to remove the others, unless the tank is really large enough for all of them, but unless you have a tank of 6+ feet this won't likely work long-term. Rams are not inexpensive either.

I wopuldn't necessarily trust anyone online; as I've discovered myself, a male/female "pair" may spawn but not be bonded. Of course, bonding can break down, there is no guarantee, but it is a safer bet.

Remember the common ram needs warmth, at minimum 80F/27C. Cardinal tetra are good dither fish. They remain in the lower half of the water level, like the rams, so for upper level fish you can look at pencilfish and hatchetfish. Not every species will work, but there are a few.

Corydoras generally prefer cooler water, but there are a few species. Essjay mentioned C. sterbai which is one of these, and often available as this species is now being commercially raised. However, cories are a problem if you want fry from the rams. Cories are semi-nocturnal, by which I mean they are active during daylight but also very much during total darkness; rams are not--I have more than once had eggs disappear to catfish overnight. Once, during the day, I observed a trio of cories come upon a shoal of blue ram fry being shepherded by the female, and within seconds the fry were gone into the cories. The ram had no possible chance of staving off three cories, with their "armour" plating. So if you want fry, leave out any catfish, or any nocturnal upper fish.

Sand is the best substrate, as cichlids are substrate feeders. Like cories, they will pick up a mouthful of sand, sift it around looking for food tidbits, then expel the sand. Sometimes this happens through the gills, which is very common in cories. So a smooth sand like play sand is ideal.

Byron.
 
Byron, thank you so much for all of this wonderful information. I will keep all of this in mind when selecting my rams. I plan on having sand substrate, its my favorite for many reasons! I did not realize that cories were so detrimental to fry - my pair of Kribs spawned and raised fry pretty successfully multiple times even with 6 albino cories in the tank. Perhaps they were just lucky!
 
Byron, thank you so much for all of this wonderful information. I will keep all of this in mind when selecting my rams. I plan on having sand substrate, its my favorite for many reasons! I did not realize that cories were so detrimental to fry - my pair of Kribs spawned and raised fry pretty successfully multiple times even with 6 albino cories in the tank. Perhaps they were just lucky!

Yes, lucky. I had a pair of Bolivians in my 115g, and they spawned four times. The cories ate the eggs of spawning 1, 2 and 4, but not 3. I was not trying to raise fry, just let the fish be themselves. The shoal of fry from spawn #3 disappeared one night so probably nocturnal catfish again.
 
Are there any cory species that are less likely to do this? Pygmies maybe? Hard to imagine a tank without those little guys scooting around the bottom!
 
Are there any cory species that are less likely to do this? Pygmies maybe? Hard to imagine a tank without those little guys scooting around the bottom!

I've not experimented with any of the "dwarf" cory species and cichlids to see. I will say that my group of Corydoras pygmaeus are on their own in a 10g thickly planted tank, and they spawn regularly and I have fish of all sizes from a mere speck on the sand (only noticed when it suddenly darts) to the adults. I never see eggs, so I've no idea how many get laid and hatch or are eaten prior, but there are 30 cories from the original six so some obviously survive predation. Having not seen any of them go after an egg or fry, I don't know. I would suspect they might not bother.

However, that brings up another issue, the size of the cories. When rams spawn, they are fierce defenders of the eggs and fry. Larger cories are pretty well protected and tend not to bother much with the rams poking at them. The pygmies might not fare so well under this treatment. And it will be constant, even outside spawning. I had a Bolivian Ram in my 115g for well into his ninth year (pretty good for a fish with an expected lifespan of 4-5 years) and at feeding, being a substrate feeder like the cories, their bumbling persistence aggravated him, and he would shove them aside. Here again pygmies might not manage to hold up under this. I've never kept any of the dwarf cory species in tanks with largish fish.

Edit. Something else just occurred to me on this, and that is temperature. The "dwarf" species of cory must be kept a cooler temperatures, by which I mean 75-76F (24C) max, and a degree or two lower wouldn't hurt. Rams need warmth.
 
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