Freshwater Fish less Cycle

[Fish For Life]

I did a water change because my nitrites and nitrates were sky high and to be honest could no longer deal with the smell from the tank with it being in the bedroom. Anyways am I missing something are does it look about cycled already? Thank You

 

[Essjay]

Can you explain what exactly you have done so far.
The test tubes show that you have some nitrite present but without knowing how much ammonia you have added and when, it is impossible to say where you are in the cycle.

 

[Fish For Life]

This is a 20 gallon long freshwater fish tank I am working on. I have manzanita driftwood amazon swords and sand substrate in the tank presently. I have the heat set to 84 and also have a air stone going. This tank has had a total of two bottles of TSS+ added to it twice. I know it is not advised to change water during a cycle but I was pretty much forced to do a huge water change because the fish tank is located within my home in the bedroom and the smell was terrible.

I only re dose the ammonia when it drops to almost zero because I do realize without ammonia being fed the bacteria will and can die off. At no time has my nitrites reached zero during this fish less cycle process I am pretty sure because it is to soon for it to be cycled. Here are the readings this morning as you can see I re dosed the ammonia last night between 1.0 ppm and 2.0 ppm. I will note just to make sure that my pH doesn't drop during the fish less cycle I also added some of that neutral regulator 7.0. Other then that nothing else has been done.

 

[Essjay]

It sounds as though you have been using the old method of fishless cycling. We have a new improved method on here now. http://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/ With this method you don't add ammonia whenever it drops to zero but at certain specific times.

Since you are already into your cycle, I would add 3 ppm ammonia and follow the instructions in that link. You should find it won't take as long as the method says as you have already added TSS and some ammonia.

 

[Fish For Life]

The water change I did I am sure also removed some of the bacteria and or the TSS+ but I should still have it in my filter, I did not mess with my filter at all. The ammonia method I have been using is the Dr Tim's ammonia chloride solution to dose and re dose. The TSS+ I added was about two weeks ago the second bottle. Instead of adding that neutral regulator later on down the road if the pH does drop do you recommend maybe that I use some crushed coral in the tank instead? The stocking for this tank will be panda corys rasboras and bolivian rams my stocking idea anyways. Thanks for the information this is my third freshwater fish tank I am fish less cycling presently.

 

[Essjay]

Water changes do not remove filter bacteria. These grow in the biofilm which is tightly bound to all the surfaces in the tank, not just in the filter.

I have heard of but never used Dr Tim's ammonium chloride. I would add however much of that it takes to get the tank water to 3 ppm, then follow the link I gave you before.



Do you mean Seachem Neutral Regulator? It is never a good idea to regulate pH using chemicals like this. All you need to do to keep the pH stable is to do a 50% water change every week.

The pH in your photo is at the top of the range for the 6.0 to 7.6 tester. Have you used the high range pH tester? If your pH is above 7.6, it will still show as 7.6 on the 'ordinary' pH tester regardless of how high it really is. Testing with the high range pH tester will show if your pH is 7.6 or higher.



Another parameter that is useful to know is the hardness of your tap water. This info should be somewhere on your water supplier's website. You need both the number and the unit as there are half a dozen different units that they could use.

 

[Fish For Life]

Yeah I know it is never good to mess with the pH in any fish tank but for some reason at one time my pH did change on me a couple of weeks ago. I think it was because of the tannins in the water even though I boiled the driftwood and let it soak for many weeks prior to adding it. I am not sure why because all of the other fish tanks in my home were all done with the same tap water and never had any issues of any kind. So the driftwood is all I can think of as to why. Another reason why I used that product it states it also removes chlorine and ammonia from tap water instead of having to use anything else such as prime and so on.

So I figured why not try it. That being said I have ordered a KH/GH test as well it should be here tomorrow as well. On the High Range pH I am showing about 7.4 ppm. Anyways I did take the time to read what you posted in that article and have the ammonia level set to 3.0 ppm. As for what the water treatment plant has said which wasn't really helpful he estimated they average anywhere from 7.2 to 7.4 but he also stated that it varies and he acted like I should not be asking the question in his voice tone which is okay because I don't drink water anyways lol.

Here is the water plant test from 2016 cant find anything else more present.

Contaminant MCLG in MCL in CCR Level found Range of Violation Date of Likely Source of Contamination Turbidity: A measure of the cloudiness of the water. We monitor it CCR Units Units in CCR Units detections Yes/No Sample because it is a good indicator of the effectiveness of our filtration Total Coliform Bacteria 0 1 positive sample 0 0 No 2016 Naturally present in the environment system. The EPA has two requirements: (1)That the maximum level * Turbidity N/A TT 0.07 .05-.36 NO 2016 Soil runoff found must be less than 1 NTU; and (2) That the level must be under (95%<.30 NTU) 0.3 NTU 95% of the time. Copper ** 1.3 AL=1.3 ppm 90 th % NO 2014

Corrosion of household plumbing Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL): The highest level of a conta- 0.098 systems; erosion of natural deposits; minant that is allowed in drinking water. MCLs are set as close to the leaching from wood preservatives MCLGs allow for a margin of safety. Total Organic 90th Percentile: 90% of samples are equal to or less that the number Carbon* NTU or Nephelometric Turbidity Units: A measue of clarity Fluoride 4 ppm 4 ppm 0.53 .39-.73 NO 2016 Erosion of natural deposits; water NA: Not applicable. ave. additive which promotes strong teeth; ND: Not detectable at testing limits. Chlorine MRDLG 4 MRDL 4 ppm 2.0 mgl N/A NO 2016 Disinfectant to control microbes Treatment Technique or TT: A required process intended to reduce ppm yearly avg. the level of a contaminant in drinking water. Lead ** 0 AL= 15 ppb 90 th % = 6.5 ppb N/A NO 2014 Corrosion of household plumbing Action Level or AL:

The concentration of a contaminant, systems, erosion of natural deposits which if exceeded, triggers treatment or other requirements, Sodium N/A N/A 6.9 N/A NO 2016 N/A which a water system must follow. Total N/A 80ppb 42 16-53 NO 2016 Byproduct of drinking water Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level Goal (MRDLG): Trihalomethanes ave. ave. chlorination The level of a drinking water disinfectant below which there Haloacetic Acids N/A 60ppb 34 9.90-54 NO 2016 Byproduct of drinking water is no known or expected risk to health. MRDLGs do not (HAA5) ave. ave. disinfection. reflect the benefits of the use of disinfectants to control * We meet the treatment technique requirement for total organic carbon and turbidity. microbial contaminants. ** During the most recent round of lead and copper testing, 0 out of 30 households sampled contained concentrations exceeding the lead action level and 0. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Essjay]

Your pH tests sound like mine, and I call mine 7.5.

When your pH dropped, how long had it been since a water change - or had you not done any at that point since it is a fishless cycle? My KH is low - it's 3 degrees - so when I did a fishless cycle my pH dropped below 6.0. But with fish in the tank it is stable because of the water changes I do.
For fishless cycling, if your KH turns out to be low - wait till you've got the tester and can see what it is - there are things you can do to boost KH. And as you do a big water change between the cycle completing and buying fish, that big water change removes just about everything you've added. I did this with my second fishless cycle and did not have a pH drop. But I won't say what I did till we know what your KH is.


Water companies in the UK usually have their water quality reports separate from the page where they give your hardness. I don't know which country you are in but it may be the same for your water company.

 

[Fish For Life]

No I have never did any water changes in the past or present during any fishless cycle process only after it has been cycled first before adding fish. Except recent because of the smell. I live in the united states and am a Tennessee resident. When that test gets here tomorrow I will test my tap water even though I have used the same tap water without any issues ever in the other tanks in the past. Will post on here the test results because to be honest I have never had to use one ever before in my life on any fish tank.

The pH is holding presently with that neutral regulator stuff which was dosed the same day when I did the water change a few days ago so I wont use it again and will continue to monitor it closely as well would hate to lose my cycle like most people I have so many other things going on or that I am working on as well besides this project. I have the patience just want to do everything correctly as possible, I have learned if you do your best to do something right the first time chances are you will have less issues or headaches down the road most times anyways lol

 

[Essjay]

When the GH and KH test kits arrive, you'll find they work differently from ammonia etc. With GH & KH you add the reagent one drop at a time, shaking after each drop, and count the drops. When the liquid in the tube changes colour, stop adding drops. The number of drops added is the hardness. Depending which brand you have bought, you may have to do a calculation but that will be explained in the instructions.

If you have soft water it will only take a few drops to change colour, and because you'd only have added a few drops the colour will be quite faint. The colour change is easier to see with hard water because that takes more drops so the colour is more intense. With hard water, before you add the next drop, stand the tube on something white and look down into it. You will now be looking through 2 inches of water not half an inch as when looking through the side, so the colour will appear more intense.


Cycling itself makes acidic chemicals and because you don't do water changes they build up. If your KH is low, it can get used up so the pH falls. Once you have fish and are doing regular water changes, these top up the KH.

 

[Fish For Life]

The tap water from my sink reads as follows with the API test being done.

KH is 3 and the GH is also 3 I read them with cap off and looked thru the top of the tubes.

Here are the readings from the tank today tested

 

[Essjay]

That sounds like my water!


I'll tell you what I did to stop my pH falling during cycling - but don't do this once you have fish.

I used baking soda (not baking powder) which is just bicarbonate of soda. You may already have some in the kitchen, if not look in the home baking aisle in the supermarket. You need 2 teaspoons for every 10 gallons tank water. Dissolve it in some water then pour it into the tank. Let it mix in for half an hour, then check the KH of the tank. If it is 5 or 6 or more, that's fine.
There is another factor with low KH - in the fishless cycling article, you'll see that the bacteria need inorganic carbon to grow. The article warns about keeping KH above 3. Baking soda is inorganic carbon.

You'll remove all the baking soda when you do the big water change at the end of cycling.

 

[Fish For Life]

Should I check the KH & GH from the tank as well? Are is there any since in it? I just wish it would cycle so that I can see what type of fish I can keep that wont die because of pH issues if it does fall again. Looks like for Bolivian rams the tank is gonna half to be pretty close to stable are they wont last long. If the pH does drop again I will try that, Right now that regulator is holding but doesn't mean it will during the entire cycle.

 

[Essjay]

You don't need to check the tank's GH unless you specifically do something to alter it such as adding RO water which will reduce it or using limestone or coral as decor, which will increase it.
KH is a different matter, at least during cycling. You need to make sure it is higher than 3 during cycling, though just a bit higher than 3 is fine. If you find it dropping to 3 or below, add a tiny bit more baking soda.

 

[Fish For Life]

Since my gH & kH are both showing number 3 on the test. I went and got some cuttlebone I need to know how much needs to be added to a freshwater 20 gallon long and the tank filter is a Aqua Clear 50 so not sure how the cuttlebone will fit in there not wanting to mess with the filter to much because the tank has not finished cycling yet. The goal or idea is to increase it enough so that Mystery Snails Panda Cory's and Rasbora's can all live in it safely long term when the tank is finished fish less cycling.