Fluval 46 Cycling

[coley17]

Hey all,
 
So i finally managed to locate a table for my tank and managed to get it set up over the weekend. I went to my LFS and purchased some live plants and also a nice piece of bogwood from one of their established tanks (which had a rather peculiar looking zebra plec inside it!)
 
 
 
After reading this thread http/forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-99848.html I decided to use the Nutrafin start up solution that came with the tank.
 
So tank up and running on Saturday and I took some initial measurements after two or three hours.
 
ph - 5
Ammonia - 0.6
Nitrite - 0
 
Today
 
ph 6
Ammonia - 1.2
Nitrite - 0
 
I assume I am also getting some ammonia kick from the bogwood.
 
 
So....questions...
 
Does this look about right for what I should see happening? I have read MANY people saying that the kick start solutions are rubbish but it seems to have worked for the guy from the link above.
 
I am keen to continue with the cycle using the solution (last dose tomorrow). Should I just monitor ammonia levels to see if they increase? And if not, abandon ship and purchase some 'pure' ammonia?
 
 
 
 
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

There is actually some lab grade research on the product your are using which shows it basically makee no difference. For one, it contains the wrong nitrite bacs.
 
Unless you have added ammonia in some form to the tank, I doubt that your readings are accurate. The numbers you report are hard to believe. For one, at 5 -  6, pH is too low to support the normal bacteria we want. The bogwood is not making any ammonia although it should have had some amount of both ammonia and nitrite bacs colonizing it. It is likely it will actually do more to help the cycle than the product you used.
 
Just to give you an idea of how bacterial supplements work. Using a good one (like Dr. Tim's One and Only) will allow you to completely cycle your tank with a single addition of bacteria, 1.5 doses of ammonia and about 7 days. The initial dose is 2 ppm and that is followed on day 2 by a 1 ppm dose. Any cycling additive which requires multiple additions to work is likely not worth using even if it is free, imo. Any cycling product which does not contain live bacteria is also not worth it.
 
Next, live plants use ammonia but do not make nitrite. So the more plants you have, the less nitrite you should see. But also after you add ammonia, the faster it will disappear.
 
Have you read the cycling article on this site?
 
In essence, had you not used the cycling product but added ammonia yourself and monitored, you would start with higher ammonia numbers and then you should see them begin to drop. What you are posting is the exact opposite of the normal progression of a cycle.
 
Finally, cycling stalls at as one's pH heads under 6.5. In such acid environments different bacteria is at work than we normally see in most tanks. They are bacteria able to process ammonium rather than ammonia. They do so less efficiently than other strains of bacteria. However, getting them establisjhed takes as much or more time than the normal tank which is anywhere from 6.5 up into the low 9s.
 
Zebra plecs do not look "peculiar" they pretty much look very similar from fish to fish, it is impossible to mistake them for any other pleco and vice versa. They are also quite pricey and most places take pretty good care of them, often keeping them in species tanks.

 

[Byron]

I second what TTA posted.  My only comment here is to say that you should be fine with no problems, given the pH.  On this, what is the pH of your tap water?  I am asking this only because you don't want the pH to suddenly jump above 7, which would turn most of the ammonium (which is relatively safe to fish) into ammonia which is highly toxic.
 
When testing tap water be sure to out-gas the CO2 or the reading may be inaccurate.  You can do this easily by briskly shaking some water in a covered jar for several minutes, then test the water.  CO2 adds carbonic acid which lowers pH, and tap water can have varying amounts of CO2 in it.  This process is not needed when testing tank water, just so you know.
 
I too have slightly acidic tap water and I "silent cycle" with live plants and have never had issues.
 
Byron.

 

[coley17]

Interesting response! I can assure you the numbers I have written were absolutely what my kit was reporting. 
 
I pre-empted a similar response and went and bought some ammonia this morning. Used the ammonia calculator and put some in the tank to get it to around 3ppm. I'll leave it and see what happens in a few days.
 
I will test the pH level again just to make sure it is indeed what I reported previously, would you suggest adjusting with chemicals if it is still around 6?  
 
 

Zebra plecs do not look "peculiar" they pretty much look very similar from fish to fish, it is impossible to mistake them for any other pleco and vice versa. They are also quite pricey and most places take pretty good care of them, often keeping them in species tanks.

 
Any fish that looks like an African horse is 'peculiar' to me 

 

[coley17]

Ok, checked the pH level. Now seems to be around 6.5. 
 
I will do another test on Wednesday and keep an eye on it.

 

[Byron]

I pre-empted a similar response and went and bought some ammonia this morning. Used the ammonia calculator and put some in the tank to get it to around 3ppm. I'll leave it and see what happens in a few days.
 

 
I hope there are no fish in this tank?  And the plants will not fare well with ammonia at this level either.  You don't need to "cycle" like this, when you have live plants and you have added bacteria-laden wood.
 

I will test the pH level again just to make sure it is indeed what I reported previously, would you suggest adjusting with chemicals if it is still around 6?
 

 
No to the chemicals, as I will explain momentarily.  But can you please test just the tap water alone, using the method I detailed previously?  It is critical to know if the pH of the tank water is to be expected from the source water, or if something else is occurring.
 
Chemicals to adjust the pH rarely work long-term because the pH is closely connected to the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) of the source water.  I won't go into all this now, as there may be no need, but before moving down this lane you need to know the GH and KH of the tap water; these you can ascertain from the municipal water supplier, probably on their website.
 
Byron. 

 

[coley17]

There are no fish in the tank and there wont be until I've cycled it all.
 
Ok pH test as requested. Water in a jar, shook it for 2 minutes non-stop. Tested with Nutrafin master kit.... pH is about 5 (bright orange)
 
Edited to add: maybe worth noting that when we filled the tank the first time it was covered in air bubbles for two days. I am guessing this is due to large amounts of CO2 in the water, as you mentioned previously. Perhaps I should leave the water in the jar for 24 hours and test again tomorrow?

 

[Byron]

There are no fish in the tank and there wont be until I've cycled it all.
 
Ok pH test as requested. Water in a jar, shook it for 2 minutes non-stop. Tested with Nutrafin master kit.... pH is about 5 (bright orange)
 
Edited to add: maybe worth noting that when we filled the tank the first time it was covered in air bubbles for two days. I am guessing this is due to large amounts of CO2 in the water, as you mentioned previously. Perhaps I should leave the water in the jar for 24 hours and test again tomorrow?

 
You could, to double check, but the test you have now done is probably accurate.  And this satisfies me that you have acidic water (and thus probably soft, though this doesn't always follow, but check the water folks for the GH and KH).  So I really would forget adding ammonia here, it is only going to upset nature.  
 
I have set up dozens of tanks using the so-called "silent cycle" method and never lost a fish or harmed one.  You just go slow with it; get the tank running (with substrate, some fast-growing plants [floating are ideal], filter, heater), add a comprehensive liquid plant fertilizer, and you're set.  I would wait overnight to ensure everything is working, but after that you can add the first few fish.  You will never detect ammonia or nitrite, and more importantly, neither will the fish.  Some species are better for this than others; not to avoid cycling issues, but some fish should only go in a biologically established system (after several weeks with other fish in the aquarium).  And assuming you have soft water, you should be considering soft water fish species.  I or others can help with this if asked.
 
And yes, the bubbles were probably CO2.  I see this with some water changers, other weeks none.
 
Byron.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Water that acid can be a danger to plumbing systems etc. If you have municipal water I would suggest you contact your water company to inquire what pH the water coming from them is. In places where acid water is an issue, home plumbing should normally be PVC rather than copper.
 
If I am remembering correctly municipal supply systems often raise pH to prevent acid water from causing corrosion and the leeching of metal ions into the supply.
 
If you actually have as low a pH as you indicate, I would want to be certain your do not have issues. Slightly acidic would imply something between 6.5 and 7.0. At 5 to 6 you are likely to have issues which may not only be harmful to aquatic life but also to human life. This is why I wonder if your tests are accurate.
 
Have a read here http/water.me.vccs.edu/concepts/corrosioncauses.html

 

[Ch4rlie]

Seems to be very soft water for the UK, wonder if you're based in Scotland or Ireland as that would better explain your soft water levels.
 
Some houses are plumbed with water softener system, which is a canister type container connected to water supply, usually found under kitchen sink, this is filled with softening salts etc, that may be a alternative reason for your soft water.

 

[Byron]

These latest issues should be looked into.  Water softeners can be harmful to fish.  Coley17, you should find the website of your municipal water supply people, or contact them directly and find out the GH, KH and pH.  There are ways to deal with all this, but you first need to know what you are dealing with.

 

[coley17]

Thanks all for the input.
 
I am indeed in Scotland where, I am led to believe, we have incredibly soft water! I have been taking tests from the tank the last few days and the pH seems to have settled at approximately 6.5 according to my kit. My ammonia level is around 3-4ppm and I am showing very slight traces of nitrites.
 
I did speak to Scottish Water and managed to find this information for my area, would be interested to know what you guys think.
 
Calcium mgCa/l - 5.89
Magnesium mgMg/l - 0.69
Hardness as mg/l CaCo3 - 17.52
 
Thanks

 

[Byron]

Thanks all for the input.
 
I am indeed in Scotland where, I am led to believe, we have incredibly soft water! I have been taking tests from the tank the last few days and the pH seems to have settled at approximately 6.5 according to my kit. My ammonia level is around 3-4ppm and I am showing very slight traces of nitrites.
 
I did speak to Scottish Water and managed to find this information for my area, would be interested to know what you guys think.
 
Calcium mgCa/l - 5.89
Magnesium mgMg/l - 0.69
Hardness as mg/l CaCo3 - 17.52
 
Thanks

 
That is very soft water.  The mg/l is the same as ppm, and this equates with 1 dGH.  I would expect the KH to be similar, so the pH will naturally lower once the tank is biologically established.  So that eliminates a few issues for you.
 
Soft water fish will be right at home.
 
Byron.

 

[coley17]

Great - so we're quite happy I'm on the right track then? 
 
I must say I didn't have a clue about all this stuff a few weeks ago, feel like I've learned loads from this site already!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Two quick comments. At 6.5 you are at the lower end of the range for the bacteria and this can mean your cycle may move more slowly than average. Also, as Byron noted, you KH is likely about 1 dg. Kh is what holds up pH levels. When it is as low as your's, there is a risk of it being easily depleted both by the bacteria during the cycle and once the tank is established, from nitrate which causes some acid in tanks and that in turn burns up KH.
 
If it gets used up during the cycle, the cycle will stall. if it gets used up when the tank is stocked, it can cause  pH crash and what that will bring with it. I am going to suggest that you consider adding a small bag of crushed coral to your filter once the tank is cycled. In larger amounts it would raise not only the KH but also the GH. However, in smaller amounts one should see little or no movement for GH. The coral slowly dissolves over time and needs to be replenished occasionally. For a 50 gal. tank I used to use about 1/2-3/4 cup of coral. I suggest you prorate based on that. Bear in mind that it takes time for the effects to show up as the coral needs to dissolve for a while before it is sufficient to take effect. You can start with too little and if, after a couple of weeks, your KH has not risen a bit, then increase the amount some and test in another week or two..
 
During your cycle, if your pH starts to drop, you can add baking soda which is sodium bicarbonate. This will raise the GH and KH. However, you do not want sodium in a fw tank with low TDS/pH as it is not good for the fish you will be keeping. If you have to use this during your cycle, it is important to do as big a water change as possible once the tank is cycled in order to get out the sodium which does not evaporate. This will also bring your parameters back to being close to your tap water. Note baking soda will also raise the pH which is OK during the cycle and yhen it will return to tap levels with the big water change.