Fish Tb, Parasites Or What?! Help !

[Kuckju]

Hi!
Last time I wrote about ICH disease thinking my fish got it. Now they don't have it because I don't see any dots.
Unfortunately I see other symptoms.

I was scarred of another disease called Fish TB (FISH TUBERCULOSIS/Mycobacterium).

About 4-5 months ago I got as a gift some platies and guppies and other fish.
One of them was deformed (looking down on it the fish had shape like "S"). That platie died in short time.

I remember that whole situation started from those new guppies.
Since I got them some guppies was dying from time to time. Disease develops in long time, finally fish was looking very poorly and they had sunken bellys.
Some days ago one of my female platies died. That fish seemed looking poorly from some time. In the moment of the death, fish had a normal belly, bulging eyes and was hidding on the bottom of the tank.
Lately my old White cloud mountain minnow died too. He had scales stand out (pinecone appearance), bloody husks.

Now 2 of my guppies has sunken bellys and poor condition and they swim unsteadly! I have moved them to the another tank.
 
On the sides of my two platies has some kind of marks. It could be losses in their husks (the marks are not big).
 
I have a LOW TECH tank and I threat my fish well. There is a lot of live plants in the tank. Fish eats only healthy food and I don't use any chemicals.
The fish from the main tank still rubs (it happens from 4-5 months). Five months ago I had ICH and I've curried it. Now my fish are still rubbing but it can't be Ich.
 
Is this a TB disease?  It seems to be symptoms of TB disease but the fish having TB should not rubs. What do you think?
 
Could it be something different or some kind of parasites?
 
 
I want to cure it quickly(now the fish eats homemade fish food with garlic).
 
Does the anybody know something about how to help with this kind of disease? I would like to use natural methods and chemical treatment as a last thing.
 
My fish would be very grateful for some help!!

 

[Kuckju]

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
 

 
 
 
HELP !

 

[StevenF]

 
 
I want to cure it quickly(now the fish eats homemade fish food with garlic).

 
I would recommend you stop feeding garlic.  I have never tried it but garlic is not safe for all animals.  Garlic and onions are closely related plants.  They get there flavor from a chemical that is toxic to many animals.  Humans have over time developed a tolerance and domesticated plants typically produce less of these toxic chemicals.  People have died from eating some wild onions and apparently it can also be toxic to dog and cats.  Many animals just don't have the genetic tolerance people have.  Furthermore in the wild fish don't eat garlic or onions.  
 
Note I also found this comment on garlic on another site:

 
 
OK I'm a no garlic for marine fish person. 

Why?

Well firstly let me give you a little background on where I’m coming from, I’m a fish disease research scientist and I specialize in fish vaccination and ectoparasite infections in fish. I don't work for, sell or am I in anyway assciated with commerical fish food production. My research laboratory has carried out many trials for fish feed manufactures on garlic, both as an appetite stimulator, immunostimulant and white spot “cure” and I shall link to some of this work published on UR and in the scientific literature.

So why not use garlic in marine fish diets.

1 Long term heart and liver lesions 

Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.

AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993
Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar).
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73

AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.1991.
High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion.
J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72

J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences

J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus)
Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277

SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.

These scientific journals detail the pathology and chronic changes due to these lipids (there are many more) but there aren’t any on reef fish, mainly as they are not a major farmed species or laboratory model, however if you apply the precautionary principal to your fish (in the same way it is applied to Humans) then you wouldn’t feed your marine fish diets containing terrestrial lipids. This has a human health comparison with Trans fats, very useful in making vegetable oils butter like so common in vegetable spreads and thought to be harmless until it turns out they cause liver tumors & heart disease in rats and mice and probably in humans too. So if this evidence is good enough to ban trans fats in foods then the much stronger data in fish should be good enough to ensure you don’t feed terrestrial oils to reef fish. As I said earlier my lab (which is a fish health research lab at a leading University) is often asked to carry out feed trials for feed manufactures and we have carried out many that use garlic or garlic extracts. Unfortunately these are considered to be commercially sensitive and I cannot tell you the results of using them to control white spot (but suffice to say the companies we have carried out scientific trials have all decided not to launched garlic supplemented feeds). However I did persuade one feed manufacturer to allow me to post the growth data from their feed trial on UR. The results were, well, damning for garlic. Here is the link to the trial from my lab in this thread
http/www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=230961 (http/www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=230961)

Why do manufactures put it in their food? well clearly there is a demand for it and they are supplying that market demanded. It doesn’t mean it good for your fish it just means that they will sell more of their food if people are misinformed and think it is beneficial

2 Garlic’s Anti-parasitic Properties

The first question I have is please show me a research paper with proper controls where garlic has been shown to cure parasitic diseases in fish. I’ve just visited web of Science (a major research database) and there are no research papers that do this.

Much of the anti parasitic effects of garlic are attributed to Allacin and most work is done in humans, where it may have some benefits if purified allacin is fed, at around 400mg kg/bw every day. However in many mammals, (dogs, cats, horses etc) garlic causes a Heinz body anemia which is potentially fatal.

My laboratory has recently carried out a trial using purified allacin in clown fish 

I recently picked up a MAEFS grant to look at this and the preliminary results are as follows The experiment was as follows

90 clown fish 40 on allicin, 40 not, 10 time zero samples. 10 sampled per week per group. The dose of allacin is 400ug/kg bw (a level used in humans and about 400ng/fish)

week 0 mean both groups 41.7% Hcrt
week 1 test 34.7% Hcrt control 42.4% Hcrt
week 2 test 18.8% Hcrt Controls 41.% Hcrt
week 3 test 17.2% Hcrt Controls 42.8% Hcrt
week 4 test 17.0% Hcrt Controls 40.6% Hcrt

Hcrt= haematocrit (how many red cells there are in the blood). The histology results on the organs hasn't been processed yet

Clearly allacin causes acute Heinz body anemia in reef fish too 

To assume that all fish can eat garlic with no ill effects seems optimistic, when in mammals (which as a group are far more closely related to each other that fish are) it is fine for some e.g. the great apes, but toxic for dogs and cats (see O. Yamato, E. Kasai, T. Katsura, S. Takahashi, T. Shiota, M. Tajima, M. Yamasaki, and Y. Maede Heinz Body Hemolytic Anemia With Eccentrocytosis From Ingestion of Chinese Chive (Allium tuberosum) and Garlic (Allium sativum) in a Dog J. Am. Anim. Hosp. Assoc., January 1, 2005; 41(1): 68 - 73. (which is just one of 100's of research articles on this in the field))

Each year veterinarians have to treat 100's of cats and dogs for acute anaemia in the UK due to their owners feeding garlic to them. Simply because they read on a web it does wonders for their immune system, is anti worms etc. Yet these potentially fatal supplements are still widely available in the US/UK

http/www.pet-points.com/product_in...roducts_id=557 (http/www.pet-points.com/product_in...roducts_id=557)
http/www.mysimon.com/9015-10992_8-29572306.html (http/www.mysimon.com/9015-10992_8-29572306.html)

3 Well Garlic must be an immunostimulant

In the most recent review if immunostimulants in marine fish 

Ian Bricknell & Roy A. Dalmo 2005 
The use of immunostimulants in fish larval aquaculture 
Fish & Shellfish Immunology 19 (5) 457-472

Garlic is not referred to as an immunostimulant.

To be honest garlic has been discussed many time on UR, if you want to feed your fish garlic then nothing is stopping you, but I doubt you will see a benefit and the evidence strongly suggests you will do short and long term harm to them.

 

[Kuckju]

I've seen that my guppies has clear/white poop. Does it mean my fish can have parasites instead TB disease?

 

[StevenF]

All it means is that the digestion of food is not going well.  It won't tell you the cause.  All it does tell you is that your fish are very sick.  However it is entirely consistent with Garlic poisoning as I posted about earlier.  Garlic is not a natural food for fish and should not be included in their diet.  I strongly suggest you switch to garlic free fish food immediately.  Brineshrimp would be a good choice.

 

[Ch4rlie]

All it means is that the digestion of food is not going well.  It won't tell you the cause.  All it does tell you is that your fish are very sick.  However it is entirely consistent with Garlic poisoning as I posted about earlier.  Garlic is not a natural food for fish and should not be included in their diet.  I strongly suggest you switch to garlic free fish food immediately.  Brineshrimp would be a good choice.

 
 
Hmm, I've actually have seen cases on this very forum as well as on other online sites that garlic DOES have beneficial elements as part of a treatment against certain pathogens and parasites.
 
Now, in SW i do not know if garlic is disadvantagous due to there being salt water in the water column, so I cannot really comment on that article you posted. But I do know that garlic is not always beneficial towards some animals, but in most cases of FW supplementary treatment its of great benefit.
 
For example, here is a quote of a brief extract about the benfit of garlic in Guppys / Poecilia reticulata :
 

" Monogenean infections of commercially farmed fishes are responsible for significant economic losses. Garlic (Allium sativum) is a well-known spice which also possesses anti-microbial and anti-parasitical properties. The current work aimed to test the efficacy of garlic-based treatments against infection with monogenean sp. in the guppy (Poecilia reticulata). Clipped sections of tail fins of guppies heavily infected with Gyrodactylus turnbulli were exposed to aqueous garlic extract (7.5 to 30 mL L−1) and visually observed under a dissecting microscope. Results revealed that exposure to garlic caused detachment of parasite and cessation of movement indicating death. A positive correlation was seen between garlic concentration and time to detachment and death of parasites, which, at the highest concentration of 30 mL L−1, occurred at 4.1 and 8.6 min, respectively. Bathing in aqueous garlic extract (7.5 and 12.5 mL L−1) was tested in guppies infected with G. turnbulli. Prior acute toxicity tests revealed the maximum tolerance levels of guppies to garlic extract to be 12.5 mL L−1 for 1 h. Bathing of infected fish in garlic extract (7.5 and 12.5 mL L−1) significantly (p < 0.05) reduced infection prevalence and intensity as compared to the control. Oral treatments using dry garlic powder-supplemented diet were tested on guppies infected with G. turnbulli and Dactylogyrus sp. Fish were fed with food containing 10% and 20% dry garlic powder for 14 days. Groups fed with garlic supplemented diets showed significantly reduced (p < 0.05) mean prevalence and mean intensity of parasites as compared to the control. Dietary application of garlic did not appear to affect palatability. Fresh crushed garlic was added at a level of 1 g L−1 and applied as an indefinite bath for 14 days. This treatment was seen to significantly reduce (p < 0.05) parasite prevalence and mean intensity as compared to the control. Histopathology revealed elevated muscular dystrophy in the 20% garlic-fed group, as compared to control. These findings demonstrate the potential of garlic as a natural alternative to currently used chemical treatments for monogenean sp. infection in the guppy. "

 
And if you don't believe that abstract and want to see further studies proving this, simply type in  'allium and fw fish parasites' on google scholar you will get at least 400 odd results -
 
https/scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2012&q=allium+and+fw+fish+parasites&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2c33
 
(allium sativum is garlic)
 
So that kinds of goes against your post to be entirely honest. So please be careful in advising against what could be good advice in cases like this, perhaps garlic may not be beneficial in some cases but to tarnish ALL FW treatment against garlic supplementary treatment is not entirely fair.

 

[StevenF]

Ch4rlie, That abstract you referenced applied carlic extract to the exterior of the fish.  It was not applied internally as food. They then watched the parasites through a microscope and could visually see them die.  However the abstract goes on to say:
 

 
 Prior acute toxicity tests revealed the maximum tolerance levels of guppies to garlic extract to be 12.5 mL L−1 for 1 h.

 

 
In otherwards they used just enough to have an effect on the parasites but not enough to affect the fish.  And there testing showed bad efffects above 12.5ml per liter of water.    They then applied garlic to the entire tank for 14 day and did observe a reduction of paracite levles. However they also noted:
Quote

 
Histopathology revealed elevated muscular dystrophy in the 20% garlic-fed group, as compared to control.

 

Muscular dystrophy is a group of diseases that cause progressive weakness and loss of muscle mass.  That means the garlic was slowly killing the fish.   Long exposure  IS HARMFULL.  My advise still stands, don't feed the fish garlic.

 

[Ch4rlie]

You are indeed quite correct my linked abstract shows what benefits garlic can do when applied externally, which shows even using this method holds natural antitoxitants and as a [SIZE=12pt]immunostimulant against bacterial issues.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]This was meant as an example of what can be attained from garlic externally, imagine what good it can do internally.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Now, one point you make I will not go against at all is the fact, TOO much garlic given long term will likely have a negative effect and can be harmful as you state BUT as long as the correct advice is given as to how much garlic is given and for how long can be of benefit.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]For example for us, humans, if eat an apple a day it keeps the doctor away is a mostly true sentinent, as apple is good for your teeth, holds vitamins and nutrients that the human body needs. However, if I was to say to eat 10 apples a day, then of course thats going to have a negative affect i.e too much acids from apples will erode the enamel from your teeth and will rot eventually, I cannot begin to imagine what that amount of acid will do to your internal lining and organs. The same thing can be applied to just about anything, including garlic of course.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]So, as a SUPPLEMENT as part of their normal diet, taken in moderation holds more benefits than negatives. I know of fish keepers and breeders who have hundreds if not thousands of dollars / pounds worth of fish, and feeding them garlic infused food once a week and they are in prime health and breeding profically. So if garlic really was as bad as you claim to be, they certainly would not risk this to their valuable fish, in fact these keepers have many years of experience, far more knowledgable and much more sciencific minded than I am so I, for one, am certainly not going to dispute this point.[/SIZE]
 
 

 
 

Prior acute toxicity tests revealed the maximum tolerance levels of guppies to garlic extract to be 12.5 mL L−1 for 1 h.

 

 
In otherwards they used just enough to have an effect on the parasites but not enough to affect the fish.  And there testing showed bad efffects above 12.5ml per liter of water.    They then applied garlic to the entire tank for 14 day and did observe a reduction of paracite levles.
 

 
 
The above statement from you even helps that point that too much garlic is harmful but given in correct dosages can be beneficial.
 
[SIZE=12pt]Just to add to my point about these studies I linked on google scholar on my earlier post, that search actually limited the returns to mostly parasite related things. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Here is a google scholar link simply linking allium and FW fish - [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]https/scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allium+and+fw+fish&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2c33[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]6,000+ studies, are you saying ALL of these studies made by extremely efficient scientist, phd's, laboratory technicans, fishkeepers with science backgrounds are wrong in saying garlic can be beneficial for FW fish?[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]I repeat, as a supplement or as a possible natural treatment for bacterial or parasitical issues is good, or at worst does no harm at all as long as not given in too large doses for too long.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]No one claimerd these fish the original poster was giving too large doses or for too long[/SIZE]
 
 

My advise still stands, don't feed the fish garlic.

 
 
As I mentioned before, a generalistic sweeping statement that claims garlic overall is bad for fish is an unfair statement when the opposite is backed up by many studies and links made by known scientists, please be careful in advising others of this.

 

[fluttermoth]

To the OP...
 
Aside from the garlic discussion, fascinating as it is, could you give us some more details of your set up, please?
 
How big is the tank and how many fish do you have?
 
Is the tank filtered and heated?
 
How often do you change the water, and how much do you change?
 
How do you clean the filter, if you have one?
 
What, exactly, is in your home made fish food?
 
Do you have water testing kits available to you and, if so, can you get the water tested and post the results? (we do need the actual numbers, not 'fine' or ' a bit high')
 
I would say that fish TB is very unlikely; it's actually a very rare disease. In 25 years of fishkeeping, I've never seen a case