Fish sickness

[concentration]

Dear all

Recently I have two swordfish having the same issue , one after one

They seem sick , but the symptom is that they bend their body horizontally .
I check up Google and some say some fishes may born this way but they are not

They growth up just fine until recently

Is it some kind of virus attack ?

Some web say no clear cause for it and most medicine won't work too , what do you guys think ?

I have tried to put medicine but doesn't help as well

Note , it just bend to one side only

The med I used say "general tonic "

Please help as it's painful to see it suffer and also concern it may spread to other fishes



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[Byron]

It is usually very difficult to pin-point the actual cause of a disease/problem. Many symptoms can occur from very different causes, from genetics to pathogens to protozoan... .Unless you can be fairly certain of the cause, treatment with medication is usually not advisable, as the stress of medications (all medications will cause stress to fish) can make things worse for the fish.

As you are new to the forum, I'll mention that when asking about a problem like this it is helpful to members if you provide data on the aquarium and fish. Water parameters (GH, KH, pH, temperature), water test results (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH), other fish in the tank, water change schedule, any additives, tank size and time running, etc. Knowing this data, as much as you can provide, sometimes shows where a problem might originate.

I'm not going to guess here, but I will say that I have never had fish recover from any form of curvature of the spine.

Byron.

 

[concentration]

Thank you , the par of the tank are as follow

PH7
GH 4-5
KH 2-3
TEMP 24degree
Ammo 0
No2 close to 0
No3 around 15mg/l

So should I consider it as normal to happen sometime ? Anything I should do ?

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[Byron]

Thank you , the par of the tank are as follow

PH7
GH 4-5
KH 2-3
TEMP 24degree
Ammo 0
No2 close to 0
No3 around 15mg/l

So should I consider it as normal to happen sometime ? Anything I should do ?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

A couple of things stand out here--the first I'll discuss is the GH, KH and pH. I will explain how, but first mention that I am not saying this is the direct cause of the spinal curvature in the two swordtails, but it is certainly a factor.

Swordtails are livebearers and all of these are native to moderately hard water with a basic (above 7.0) pH. The GH is the most critical. GH is the measurement of dissolved calcium and magnesium in the water, and fish from moderately hard waters have evolved a physiology that needs these minerals in the water or their metabolism will not properly function. At the very least, the absence of the minerals (i.e., soft water) means severe stress to the fish but more importantly the internal homeostasis of the fish simply cannot function properly, which weakens the fish even further. This makes the fish especially prone to disease and health issues that it would ordinarily (without this stress) likely be able to fight off, and the weakening also magnifies any genetic issues.

The KH is part of this as is the pH. Increasing the GH significantly will serve to raise the pH, so it is the GH that must be targeted. A GH of 4 or 5 dGH (I am assuming the measurement unit is degrees, not ppm or mg/l which would be even worse) is ideal for soft water species, but not for any livebearers which as I said above must have harder water. A GH of at least 10 d GH but higher around 12 dGH would suit livebearers. The pH as I say would increase too.

Fussing with adjusting water parameters is not that easy, but it is an option. But given your water parameters, it would make life much simpler to forget about livebearers and select soft water species. Pretty much all of the South American tetras, pencilfish, hatchetfish, catfish and dwarf cichlids are suitable, as well as most of the rasbora, danios, barbs, gourami and loaches from SE Asia. Lots of options.

Now, another issue is the NO2, nitrite. You say "close to 0"--if nitrite is not zero you have a problem. Ammonia and nitrite must always be zero. Nitrite is highly toxic at fairly low levels. Our aquarium test kits are sometimes not accurate like scientific units, but I would still take this seriously and look into it further. Are you using test strips or a liquid test kit like the API? The liquid are generally more reliable.

NO3 (nitrate) at 15 ppm (ppm = mg/l, so you know) is not dangerous, but I am wondering if this plus the nitrite means this is a fairly new tank? If we are at the end of the cycling for example, this would explain the numbers somewhat, and they should settle down. That does not discount the nitrite effect though, if it was even a tad higher before now. Fish do not fully recover from nitrite poisoning. Here again, it can trigger something else.

Byron.

 

[concentration]

A couple of things stand out here--the first I'll discuss is the GH, KH and pH. I will explain how, but first mention that I am not saying this is the direct cause of the spinal curvature in the two swordtails, but it is certainly a factor.

Swordtails are livebearers and all of these are native to moderately hard water with a basic (above 7.0) pH. The GH is the most critical. GH is the measurement of dissolved calcium and magnesium in the water, and fish from moderately hard waters have evolved a physiology that needs these minerals in the water or their metabolism will not properly function. At the very least, the absence of the minerals (i.e., soft water) means severe stress to the fish but more importantly the internal homeostasis of the fish simply cannot function properly, which weakens the fish even further. This makes the fish especially prone to disease and health issues that it would ordinarily (without this stress) likely be able to fight off, and the weakening also magnifies any genetic issues.

The KH is part of this as is the pH. Increasing the GH significantly will serve to raise the pH, so it is the GH that must be targeted. A GH of 4 or 5 dGH (I am assuming the measurement unit is degrees, not ppm or mg/l which would be even worse) is ideal for soft water species, but not for any livebearers which as I said above must have harder water. A GH of at least 10 d GH but higher around 12 dGH would suit livebearers. The pH as I say would increase too.

Fussing with adjusting water parameters is not that easy, but it is an option. But given your water parameters, it would make life much simpler to forget about livebearers and select soft water species. Pretty much all of the South American tetras, pencilfish, hatchetfish, catfish and dwarf cichlids are suitable, as well as most of the rasbora, danios, barbs, gourami and loaches from SE Asia. Lots of options.

Now, another issue is the NO2, nitrite. You say "close to 0"--if nitrite is not zero you have a problem. Ammonia and nitrite must always be zero. Nitrite is highly toxic at fairly low levels. Our aquarium test kits are sometimes not accurate like scientific units, but I would still take this seriously and look into it further. Are you using test strips or a liquid test kit like the API? The liquid are generally more reliable.

NO3 (nitrate) at 15 ppm (ppm = mg/l, so you know) is not dangerous, but I am wondering if this plus the nitrite means this is a fairly new tank? If we are at the end of the cycling for example, this would explain the numbers somewhat, and they should settle down. That does not discount the nitrite effect though, if it was even a tad higher before now. Fish do not fully recover from nitrite poisoning. Here again, it can trigger something else.

Byron.

Dear Byron, thank you for your time to explain so much details to me , it's very helpful

Allow me to provide additional information to the issue , the tank is around 10 months old and those swordtail had been living there for 8 months

They look all fine until recently this happen

For the no2 and ammonia, yes I tested it and it show zero , I am just not sure if it's possible to make it zero and suspect the test is not 100% accurate and so I wrote close to zero just to be safe, I tested again (liquid tester ) and it show zero to both

I am going to list out what has happened to the tank for the last two weeks and see if any of the belowing may be related to the issue

1. I have put a new planet
2. I have out 5 new fishes (guppy) and up till now , two die( one has broken tail , not sure if she got bite by other fishes or virus but other fishes has no issue up to this point, another one I will explain below )
3 I apply Abit of some sort of liquid stuff which say will increase GH and KH ( before the water GH was just 2-3 with KH almost zero, I hear guppy prefer higher GH , even tho the existing guppy has been living here for sometime, I decided to try increase the GH for them ) and now GH Is around 7 ( sorry I mistake and wrote GH was 3-4 in last post )
4. Two guppy just gave birth , one die afterwards, it seem her back is Abit broken again , not sure if she got bite or virus

5 I usually change water two times aweek and keep the no3 around 10-15 but I missed one water changing out last week and when I change it , the water show around 20-30 (now is back to 15)

6. I have bought and use seachem denitrification ( which is like piece of small stone ) but it doesn't help much after input it into my filter ( I believe the water flow is too strong for it ) but it doesn't seems to have any negativie effect on the fishes I think



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[Byron]

I think we can forget the NO2, that doesn't seem to have been an issue.

The nitrate fluctuation is worth looking into. My tanks remain consistent in the 0 to 5 ppm range (API test, not sure if it is closer to zero or five) and one tank is 10 ppm. I have lots of live plants that helps with this, and I change 50-60% of the tank volume once a week. Over months and even years, this nitrate has never varied. If you are seeing 20-30 ppm before a water change, and then 10-15 ppm after, and with two partial water changes each week, the nitrate is accumulating too much and too quickly. Have you tested the source water (tap water) for nitrate? This is worth doing, just to eliminate or confirm that as a source of some of this.

So that brings us to the tank size (not mentioned yet) and the number of fish in total (also not mentioned). IF the tank is overstocked, or the fish are being overfed, this can cause nitrates to accumulate. Not keeping the filter cleaned, and not vacuuming the substrate to remove organics can also cause nitrates. Assuming the source water is zero nitrate, it should be possible to get the nitrates in the aquarium down to a safe level that is consistent. When I know the tank size and number of fish (and species for each) I may be able to say more.

I don't know the product you are using to increase the GH, but some of these are not all that safe. It would be preferable to change over to soft water fish. It makes water changes much easier, especially at times when more might be needed--the first thing I do with any sign of a problem is a major water change, and sometime this alone solves the problem. It certainly won't hurt, but when parameters are so different that is another issue.

The better way to deal with any issue like the nitrates is naturally, resolving the source of the problem, rather than using additives, filter media, etc to deal with it. Better to eliminate the cause (prevention) rather than treating the result.

Back to the swordtail issue, I am not going to guess as there are several possible causes, but these chemicals may not have helped. The less we add to an aquarium, the better, as all these things get inside fish and some of them can cause problems for the fish.

Byron.

 

[concentration]

I think we can forget the NO2, that doesn't seem to have been an issue.

The nitrate fluctuation is worth looking into. My tanks remain consistent in the 0 to 5 ppm range (API test, not sure if it is closer to zero or five) and one tank is 10 ppm. I have lots of live plants that helps with this, and I change 50-60% of the tank volume once a week. Over months and even years, this nitrate has never varied. If you are seeing 20-30 ppm before a water change, and then 10-15 ppm after, and with two partial water changes each week, the nitrate is accumulating too much and too quickly. Have you tested the source water (tap water) for nitrate? This is worth doing, just to eliminate or confirm that as a source of some of this.

So that brings us to the tank size (not mentioned yet) and the number of fish in total (also not mentioned). IF the tank is overstocked, or the fish are being overfed, this can cause nitrates to accumulate. Not keeping the filter cleaned, and not vacuuming the substrate to remove organics can also cause nitrates. Assuming the source water is zero nitrate, it should be possible to get the nitrates in the aquarium down to a safe level that is consistent. When I know the tank size and number of fish (and species for each) I may be able to say more.

I don't know the product you are using to increase the GH, but some of these are not all that safe. It would be preferable to change over to soft water fish. It makes water changes much easier, especially at times when more might be needed--the first thing I do with any sign of a problem is a major water change, and sometime this alone solves the problem. It certainly won't hurt, but when parameters are so different that is another issue.

The better way to deal with any issue like the nitrates is naturally, resolving the source of the problem, rather than using additives, filter media, etc to deal with it. Better to eliminate the cause (prevention) rather than treating the result.

Back to the swordtail issue, I am not going to guess as there are several possible causes, but these chemicals may not have helped. The less we add to an aquarium, the better, as all these things get inside fish and some of them can cause problems for the fish.

Byron.

Yes Byron , I also read someone feedback saying that fishes is more adaptable then we thought, keeping it simple maybe the key , I would stop the co2 for a while and see how it gets goes , and making sure the no3 is low

Have u or anything use those stone like seachem no3 remover before ? It seems a relatively natural way to control no3

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