Finrot, again!?

[King puff]

I have had my German Blue for almost half a year now. She is in a 10 gallon tank with a South American Bumblebee catfish (they have never had a problem). Ever since I got her, I have been doing 50% water changes every week. One week I had to skip the water change and noticed her pectoral fins had finrot. I did the water change the next week and noticed it had gone. Are my 50% water changes keeping this fish's fins from rotting away? I cannon vacuum the substrate as it is very fine sand which will all get sucked up the pump. The water temp. is 83 degrees and I have Indian almond leaves to lower ph and release tannens.

I forgot to mention that this week I did a water change yet she still got finrot. I also did not have any more almond leaves which could have been the problem.

 

[Byron]

Most will suggest water conditions as the prime cause of fin rot, though of course there are other factors. What is the GH, pH and nitrate?

Leaves do have anti-bacterial (or is it anti-fungal?) properties, so they may help as you suggest. And would the water changes.

 

[King puff]

I will give you the water parameters shortly. I really do need a test kit! I could not imagine it being the nitrate because of the water changes. If so, I may need to just add more plants. Planting this tank was hard to start out because of the low lighting.

The fact that I do weekly water changes and have the leaves makes me wonder why she is always getting finrot. The leaves have never seemed to make a huge difference. Its more to lower the ph and make the fish feel comfortable.

The temp is 83 degrees

 

[Colin_T]

Leaves do have anti-bacterial (or is it anti-fungal?) properties, so they may help as you suggest...

Tannins in the water do both, help reduce bacterial and fungal infections. However, it doesn't stop them completely, so you can have blackwater (heavily stained with tannins) and the fish still get fungus or bacteria.

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Do you have a filter on the tank?
If no, then the probable cause is ammonia damaging the fish and bacteria getting into the wound. And if you don't have a filter then do a 75% water change every day for 2 weeks, then twice a week after that.
If you do have a filter then still do a 75% water change every day for 2 weeks then cut it back to 75% once a week.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

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If you get a gravel cleaner like the one in the following link, you can clean the substrate without removing it from the tank. If the substrate starts to get sucked up the hose you kink the siphon hose and the substrate should sink back to the bottom. You need to clean the substrate regularly to remove rotting organic matter that encourages bacterial and protozoan infections.
http://www.about-goldfish.com/aquarium-cleaning.html

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Your fish may have a low level bacterial infection that is being kept in check by the fish's immune system and the water changes, but it will need to be treated properly if it is an infection.
Can you post a picture of the fish?

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You can get 25-50watt LED spotlights from any hardware or lighting store, and have one above the tank. It will provide ample light for most plants. Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides) are great and don't need much light.

 

[King puff]

I do have a relatively strong filter. Strong enough that I have to redirect the outtake with driftwood to keep the flow low. The water that I use for this tank is the same that I use for all my other tanks. My other tanks have no ill effects.

I do have a gravel cleaner for my other tanks which I have tried on the sand. This has not worked. The sand is easily disturbed and goes everywhere before settling back down after a few minutes. I have resorted to disturbing the waste and rotting plant material then using the gravel cleaner.

I do have water sprite which has grown unbelievably slow because of the lighting. I may just get some Anubias.

On the pictures you can see that the bottom pectoral fin looks like it's rotting but all other fins are in tact.

 

[Colin_T]

Apart from the frayed fins she looks really good

The black, blue & red fins under the neck (pointing downwards) are the pelvic fins, whereas the pectoral fins are the clear ones on the side of the body behind the gill cover. However, that's irrelevant because the pelvic fins are definitely not normal and you should not be able to see the fin rays.

She either has a low level bacterial infection or a minor protozoan infection in the fins. Protozoans don't normally just chew up fins and will quickly spread to the rest of the body.

A low grade bacterial infection can be treated with most broad spectrum fish medications that contain methylene blue. If you use Methylene Blue, treat the fish in a separate tank because the medication will kill filter bacteria and stain silicon blue. You will have to treat her for at least 2 weeks to ensure it is gone.

Instead of treating the tank you could try applying a couple of drops of medication directly to her fins. You have to catch the fish in a net, lift her out of the tank and keep her in the net but hold her over a bowl. Then put a couple of drops of medication directly on her fins. Wait 20seconds then put her back in the tank. You would have to do this 2 times a day for a couple of weeks and the netting could stress her. But it does save the filter bacteria.

Another option is to remove some of the filter media and put it in another tank. Then treat her tank and after treatment, do some water changes and then put the old filter material back into the tank.

 

[seangee]

I do have a gravel cleaner for my other tanks which I have tried on the sand. This has not worked. The sand is easily disturbed and goes everywhere before settling back down after a few minutes. I have resorted to disturbing the waste and rotting plant material then using the gravel cleaner.

Its a bit of a knack but it is possible. Hover the cleaner above the sand slowly and once you get the level right it will pick up the waste and leave the sand. Some people attach a piece of plastic to the vacuum to get the level right and give more control when "disturbing" the waste. Think there are a couple of vids on Youtube.

 

[King puff]

the pelvic fins are definitely not normal and you should not be able to see the fin rays.

Yes, this was my concern. The other fin does not have the frayed sides

She either has a low level bacterial infection or a minor protozoan infection in the fins.

My guess is bacteria as she has had this before and has had it on noting else but the pelvic fins.

Another option is to remove some of the filter media and put it in another tank. Then treat her tank and after treatment, do some water changes and then put the old filter material back into the tank.

This seems like the easiest way. I have a HOB filter so I will most likely put a new filter cartridge in my other tank and put the new cartridge in when I am done treating her.

I have some leftover marineland ick remedy from a few years ago. Will this work or is it too old. It says that is also treats external parasites and fungal infections.

 

[Colin_T]

What is the treament for marine ich called, and what does it contain (ingredients)?
If it has Methylene Blue, Malachite Green and something else, then it will be fine and treat protozoan and bacterial infections.

Check the expiry date on the marine ich treament. Assuming it hasn't been kept in a hot environment, it should still be good if it hasn't passed the expiry date.

 

[King puff]

Well... things are getting worse. The infection has rapidly moved to the other fin and I am not sure where it is going next. The treatment is literally called marineland ick remedy and it does not show ingredients.

I did a large water change on Sunday and also changed the filter. I found alot of detritus behind one of the big stones that I got out. I am really starting to worry about this fish

 

[Colin_T]

The Marineland Ick remedy will not cure fungus or bacterial infections. It contains Malachite Green, Nitromersol and BREX.

Try to find a medication containing Methylene Blue.

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You said you changed the filter. Did you replace filter media with new media?
If yes, you should not be replacing the filter media because it holds beneficial bacteria that keep the water clean. Without this good bacteria you can get ammonia and nitrite build up in the water and that can stress, weaken and kill the fish. It can also damage their fins.

If you have carbon in the filter, that can be replaced but sponges, ceramic beads and filter matting should not be replaced unless they fall apart. Then you only replace one piece of media at a time and wait a month before replacing another bit.

Same thing when you treat the fish. If you treat the main tank with Methylene Blue, you should put some of the current filter materials into another tank so the good bacteria don't get killed off by the medication.

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To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height of the tank, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

Before you treat an aquarium you should wipe the inside of the glass to remove any biofilm. Then do a complete gravel clean and replace 75% of the tank water with clean dechlorinated water.
Remove any carbon from the filter and throw it away.
Then treat the aquarium.

Increase aeration whenever treating an aquarium with any medication.

 

[King puff]

You said you changed the filter. Did you replace filter media with new media?
If yes, you should not be replacing the filter media because it holds beneficial bacteria that keep the water clean. Without this good bacteria you can get ammonia and nitrite build up in the water and that can stress, weaken and kill the fish. It can also damage their fins.

Yes, I am aware of this. The filter is a bio wheel model which means that the beneficial bacteria is not only stored in the filter but also in the wheel itself.

This fish is truly a mystery. It has been two days after the water change and her fins have already healed up almost completely. I am wondering if doing the treatment would just cause more stress as she did heal relatively quickly.

 

[Colin_T]

Fins don't heal that fast. Can you post another picture showing the healed fins?

 

[King puff]

Nothing has changed. I was looking at the other fin which has now gotten worse. Would it be ok to move her to my larger, healthier tank? It does not have sand or leaves but has plenty of cover. You can see it on the tank of the month voting thread.

 

[Colin_T]

Just treat her in the tank she normally lives in or a smaller hospital tank. The smaller the tank, the less medication you will need.
Keep her in medicated water for at least 2 weeks.