Europe

[ShinySideUp]

So, will we get a referendum this year about memberhsip of the EU? Cameron is trying -- again -- to renegotiate our position in Europe but I am not hopeful of any success.
 
I am a Europhile, I love the idea but I am unhappy with many of the Euro Commissions decisions/aspirations regarding immigration, Shengen, and general rule-making; especially as the ones with all the power are the un-elected commissioners who can do what they like -- against my sense of democracy and fairness.
 
What with the migrant problem and the seeming intransigence of the European courts regarding migrant siblings, I find myself tending toward leaving the EU.
 
If I, as a general Europhile, am thinking I might vote 'out', how does that sit with those that are undecided and more, those that never liked the idea in the first place?
 
Are we likely to be 'in' or 'out' by the end of the decade.
 
Discuss.

 

[Far_King]

I have to say I'm in agreement with you.  In principal Europe could more than rival the U.S. if all it's member states pulled together (what are the US States after all apart from former small countries).
 
The problem is there will never be one president at the head of everything who can make decisions that would benefit all of Europe without putting someone's nose out of joint and that will not favour their own country (which is only a natural thing to do).
 
Shengen is already a failed experiment.  It would take a dramatic decrease in numbers of migrants for countries to even consider relaxing their border control.  As soon as Germany start doing it then it's the final nail in the Shengen coffin.
 
The single currency has never worked.  Countries must meet stringent targets in order to join which generally means massive inflation of their economies to the point of a lot of things becoming unobtainable before they can be admitted into the Euro and then you have a country that has a hangover from massive inflation and before long requires a bailout from the wealthier countries.  This is to the detriment of all in the Euro.
 
Iceland, Norway and Switzerland aren't EU members and they're doing just fine.  It's worth noting though that there can be issues decided by Europe that will still have an effect on a non-member state, especially if products are made for export.
 
Personally I think European laws get treated as a buffet by some countries where they pick and choose what they want to obey because the fine is less than obeying the law!  It feels like we blindly obey the laws as dictated because it's the gentlemanly thing to do.
 
If I'm perfectly honest I'm in two minds on the whole thing.  I do know one thing though, we're on a tiny island with a bursting population and net migration has to change.  Building more and more houses on flood plains is causing massive problems and that's only going to continue.  Hospitals, schools and Dr's surgeries cannot cope.  Road infrastructure is at maximum capacity.  If net migration can be reduced by leaving the EU, then I'll vote yes.

 

[Akasha72]

I hope we are getting the referendum this year. I already know how I'm going to vote. I plan to vote to leave. I've never hidden the fact I've voted for UKIP a few times now. I agree with nearly all Nigel says.
 
What bothers me is these people in Europe are all unelected. I didn't vote for any of them to speak for me. It's also just a 'gravy train' for the lot of em. The turn up in Europe - they're journey in 1st class paid for by the tax payer, are put up in 5 star accommodation - paid for by the tax payer, then they sip champayne and eat caviar again at the tax payers expense!! On top of that we pay millions every day just to be part of the gravy train.
 
And what do we get out of it? We trade more to them than they do to us. We're told we can't sell mis-shapen fruit and veg and anything that doesn't look 'pretty' is to be wasted. We can't control our own borders and decide who we allow in the country. We can't control the benefit system so now we have a greedy bunch putting their greasy hands in a pot they've never paid into and all to satisfy a bunch of unelected bureaucrats.
 
It's time to get out so we can take control of our own country again. 
 
What worries me though is our politicians. Let's face it, staying in works in their favour. Once they get voted out they know they can jump on the EU gravy train and get a cushy job for life.
I've got this horrible sick feeling that even if the country votes to leave the gov will find a way to keep us in. They lie and I don't trust em

 

[Munroco]

I don't agree that  "we're on a tiny island with a bursting population" Huge swathes of our country are owned by a tiny part of our population. Our present government has no wish to change this as many of them are part of this tiny part. Sporting estates are more important to them than the well being of the general population.
 
I would rather be governed by Europe than this lot of self serving heartless criminals that we have in charge now. The European union isn't much better  but are marginally more humanitarian than the tories who are grinding us into poverty.

 

[Far_King]

Personally, I enjoy the countryside and would like to see it remain as it is rather than have it built on to support a burgeoning population.
I don't agree with the trend for second homes which could in many cases provide the housing required.  I don't see why places should stand empty.

 

[Munroco]

I agree about the countryside, its the vast estates and huge tracts of land owned by the elite that I object to. A large percentage of land in Britain is owned by foreign concerns who buy them as investments and do nothing with them (hunting and fishing for the priviliged few excepted). This is a waste.

 

[twintanks]

No Briton should be in favour of submerging the country's sovereignty and accepting rule by a foreign power. This idea of joining hands in so-called friendship with our European counterparts all sounds nice and lovey-dovey, but it is actually the route to the final destruction of the United Kingdom. I am always amazed at how quick people are to throw away our currency, our heritage, our identity. We can still trade with European countries even if we are not EU members. It'll save us over £50 million per day and ensure that the country gets to make its own destiny, not one dictated by unelected faceless elite sat behind closed doors. The EU parliament is a sham democracy, they just rubber-stamp what the Commissioners want. If people really knew and understood the true history of the European Union and what they have planned for us, they'd be clamouring to get out tomorrow.
As for saying you'd rather be governed by Europe than the heartless criminals we have now.....please read EU for Europe, they are two different things....well you aint seen nothing yet. Schengen open-borders has already started destroying Sweden and Germany; and our own young people are struggling to find work as cheap labour pours into Britain.
I'm with Akasha...and UKIP... on this one. Cameron will sell the public the utopia poster, about how Britain could never manage without Brussels...hahaha, we managed great for hundreds of years. I'm not fooled by anything. Why on earth people worship Brussels and think we need multi-levels of political control....and foreign ones at that...is beyond my understanding.

 

[Akasha72]

the thing that upsets me the most is what our grandfathers went through so that we could be free of German rule - twice. My own Grandad was packed off to France at the age of 17 (just days before his 18th birthday) to fight in WW1 .... and what for? What did he risk his life for? If he was alive today he'd be angry that we've handed over our country to foreigner rule.
 
To me the EU makes a mockery out of those lads that fought in WW1 and WW2.
 
We need to go back to being proud of our country, to fight for our country and our rights. Tell Brussels to do one

 

[Munroco]

No Briton should be in favour of submerging the country's sovereignty and accepting rule by a foreign power. This idea of joining hands in so-called friendship with our European counterparts all sounds nice and lovey-dovey, but it is actually the route to the final destruction of the United Kingdom

But according to that logic there shouldn't be a United Kingdom. Scotland and Wales are countries, (the UK isn't BTW) so by your logic they shouldn't be subservient to the Rest of the UK. I only wish it were so.

 

[PepperjacksMama]

As a non Briton. I find the arguments fascinating. To a certain degree what we face here in the U.S. not just with our fights with Washington D.C., but also wit trying to cede our sovereignty to the United Nations.

On a side note Far_King, Hawaii was a kingdom, and Texas was an independent country.The rest of us were colonies and territory.

 

[Akasha72]

arguements? oh gods I hope not ... healthy debate is one thing but if there's gonna be an arguement then I'm off. Life's too short

 

[PepperjacksMama]

Yes, arguments. As in debate. A premise: Leaving or staying in the E.U.
Statements made for or against.
A conclusion.

For my part, joining was one of the worst mistakes made by Britan in at least a Century.

 

[Akasha72]

joining the E.U you mean? in which case hell yeah!
 
It was a decision made out of government lies before I was born apparently. That's what my Dad tells me anyway. He said the gov told everyone it was only for 'trading' and nothing more. 
 
One thing I always remember now - Politician=Liar

 

[iliveinazoo]

My mind fragments when I think about it:
1. I would love to live in a world where there was only one head of the planet voted for by democratic means, we would all have one flag, one currency, one tax system and zero wars.
2. The above would make you think that I believe in the European Union but I don't, the United States of Europe was drawn up a long time ago and the EU will always have problems until all of the member states realise that they have to see themselves as different counties or states in one large country.
3. All I seem to hear about in the debate is immigration problems and border controls as if that is the only issue, for me it is one of ideology, I.e. Do you want to live in the United States of Europe? My instinctive answer is no but I could end up voting to stay in because at the moment the debate is saying that the only reason to vote out is because of immigration. Immigration is so far down on my list of priorities that if this is the only negative then i should vote to stay in the EU then? I am sure that there are plenty of arguments on either side but we aren't hearing them, the likes of Newsnight and the Today programme take the easy option every time and talk flaming immigration! What they should be doing is challenging each side on democratic accountability and the economic benefits, they should discuss justice systems, and whether there is or will be Europe wide taxation for things like a European army or space programme. We should also be looking into The likelihood of Gibraltar, Malta, Scotland, Wales etc. cutting ties with us if we vote out.
4. If Cameron manages to change some rules now it really doesn't matter because future governments will change the rules back again in the end because the EU needs ever closer union. I say this because the last time we had a vote it was about joining a free trade market only but how much sovereignty has been handed over since??

Trying to work out what's best is as mind bending as trying to figure out what shape the universe is and what exists outside of it!

 

[Akasha72]

Immigration is a big deal. We are a small island with limited resources. We havn't got the infastructure to cope with this influx of people. Hospitals are buckling under the strain, as are Dr's, dentists and schools, housing ... the list goes on.
 
I'm not one for reading papers, nor believing what I read on the rare occasion that I do, but recently The Sun did some digging and the E.U lot have said that 'They will decide if we are allowed to keep our Queen and our currency'
 
If that statement isn't enough to get the sphincter twitching I don't know what is