Emptying/Refilling 450L Tank + 100% Substrate Swap Crisis

FishForums.net Pet of the Month
🐶 POTM Poll is Open! 🦎 Click here to Vote! 🐰

Cameronb_01

Fish Fanatic
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
106
Reaction score
3
Location
GB
Hi Guys,

Two days ago, (almost exactly three years into the lifetime of my planted discus tank), I finally resolved to get rid of my horribly coloured and tacky, (as well as completely waste saturated), substrate and replace it with some new quality stuff which I'd had my eye on for quite a while to give the tank a bit of a makeover: ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia. My process in performing this exchange thus far is set out below:

16/11/2017 [00:00] - Drained 100L of water from the tank into a 125L bucket.
16/11/2017 [00:17] - Installed a spare external filter/heating unit for the 100L of water in the bucket.
16/11/2017 [00:24] - Transfered the 10 Discus from the tank to the 100L of water in the bucket.
16/11/2017 [00:39] - Turned off/removed from water all the apparatus associated with the tank, (filter/air-pump etc.)
16/11/2017 [00:45] - Drained from the tank another 100L of water into a separate 125L bucket.
16/11/2017 [01:02] - Emptied the remaining 250L or so of water from the tank and discarded it.
16/11/2017 [01:41] - Removed from the tank all of the old gravel substrate and cleaned the glass thoroughly.
1611/2017 [02:09] - Added 12L of ADA Power Sand, (Size L)
16/11/2017 [02:18] - Added 36L of ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia
16/11/2017 [02:46] - Added 9L of ADA Aqua Soil Powder Amazonia as final layer
16/11/2017 [02:53] - Started filling the tank up with water straight from RO filter, (very slow).
16/11/2017 [15:59] - Tank contained approximately 180L of 100% RO water.
16/11/2017 [16:02] - Decanted the 100L of old tank water, (from the bucket not containing fish), back into the tank.
16/11/2017 [16:13] - Resumed filtration, heating and aeration in the tank.
17/11/2017 [04:04] - The tank was 100% full of water!
17/11/2017 [04:06] - Added 60ml AmmoLock: https://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?id=654#.WhFxQ0pl-Uk
19/11/2017 [08:01] - Added 60ml of Api AmmoLock for the second time and tested my water for NH3 & NO3.
RESULTS: Ammonia readings were off the charts high (>6ppm), nitrates were completely fine, (around 7ppm).
19/11/2017 [12:00] - I began composing the post you are now reading.

API Ammo-Lock claims on the bottle that it "works instantly"; adding that "AMMO-LOCK does not remove ammonia; it converts it to a non-toxic form. After using AMMO-LOCK, your aquarium water will still test positive for ammonia even though it is in a non toxic form which will be removed by the biological filter."

Essentially my question is: does this mean that I can be confident of returning my 10 discus fish to the tank without the chance of their suffering adverse effects from ammonia poisoning? (Assuming I continue to dose AmmoLock as instructed every-other-day?)

Any responses would be much appreciated as I am all too aware of how fragile and sensitive a species Discus are and keeping them as they are now can definitely not be more than a short term solution.

Thanks again.

Best wishes,

Cameron

 
It's my understanding that ADA substrate releases tons of ammonia, I believe that the instructions indicate that you need numerous water changes (as in every day for a week, then every other day...) long before any fish are added.
It is uncertain if your bio-filter can handle the converted ammonium and Discuss are especially sensitive to water quality as evidenced by so many that do so many water changes normally.
Even though the products you mention 'claim' to convert ammonia to more harmless ammonium, I would not put the fish back until your tests indicate that ammonia/ammonium is no longer an issue. If you do put the stock back before, there is some risk. If you assume the risk, I would only put one or two back as a test. If they do okay for a few days, then the others may follow. But only you can decide.
 
Thanks for your response @AbbeysDad

In accordance with your advice: I have put in a couple of mollies initially to see how they fare. If they do alright then I will tentatively risk it with one of the Discus and go from there...

Also: I have a spare unopened 2L cartridge of Eheim biological filter media. Should I swap out 1 of my mechanical media slots for this extra bio-media to speed things up or is it not worth doing?

Will keep you all updated.

Best wishes,

Cameron
 
Adding extra media won't automatically speed things up. If there is already enough media to house the two bacteria colonies, adding more media won't get them to multiply any faster. The bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite grow on all the surfaces in the tank not just the filter media.

Is your water soft - discus need soft water? Mollies need hard water so if you do have soft water, that together with the ammonia from the soil will stress the mollies badly.
 
@essjay the water is soft/acidic: but my experience with mollies has left me under the impression that they're a pretty tough bunch who can deal with more or less any condition thrown at them? If this is wrong and thus they are un-desirable as guinea pigs for the ammonia- I could switch them out for some rummy-nose tetras if that would be worthwhile?
 
@essjay the water is soft/acidic: but my experience with mollies has left me under the impression that they're a pretty tough bunch who can deal with more or less any condition thrown at them? If this is wrong and thus they are un-desirable as guinea pigs for the ammonia- I could switch them out for some rummy-nose tetras if that would be worthwhile?

Mollies like all livebearers must have moderately hard or harder water. They cannot somehow adjust to soft water and will succumb within weeks; they are much more sensitive for this than other livebearers even. "Moderately hard or harder" for mollies means a GH of at least 15 dGH (268 ppm) and a pH well above 7.0. They can even manage in marine tanks, though I am not suggesting they should be forced into this, just mention it for reference.

Another equally serious issue with mollies is ammonia, they are one of the most sensitive fish when it comes to ammonia. This is why they are so often dead within weeks when added to new tanks.

Re the ammonia, I would not recommend you add any fish to this tank until you are certain the ammonia is remaining zero. Most soil-base plant tank sources now recommend six months before adding fish when using soil, because of the ammonia risks. I do not know about ADA but AbbeysDad has mentioned ammonia being an issue, so take it from there. Rummynose is a sensitive characin species, and any ammonia is likely going to have detrimental effects that are permanent, leading to other problems and a shorter lifespan. Subjecting any fish to ammonia risk is something I would avoid.

Byron.
 
Thanks so much for taking the time to write such an informative response @Byron, it's much appreciated.

And I accept that returning fish to water with high levels of ammonia, (albeit water apparently made non-toxic as per the 'guarantee' on the API bottle), is far from undesirable.

However, that leaves me stuck between a very spiky rock and an extremely hard spot because I am left with 10 poor Discus fish sitting around in a black bucket-

I don't have any friends with 450L of empty tank to spare, my LFS will not rent me a 'fish hotel tank' as it where and I definitely do not have the kind of cash/space to go buy another suitable tank for them: so what can I do? (Genuine question, I have no clue whatsoever)

All I can think of right now is to guinea-pig with a mollies, (because they breed like rabbits and I have another tank overflowing with and, (as horrible as it sounds), because as per @Byron's helpful reply stated, they will die of ammonia poisoning if there is a problem very quickly; therefore giving the quickest results possible).

If anyone could shed any more light or has any new suggestions whatsoever that would be much appreciated!

Best wishes,

Cameron
 
Cameron - Get a large (18-20+g) Sterlite or Rubermade bin/tote to use as a temporary aquarium. They are very inexpensive and may save your fish while you get the ammonia in your tank under control.
 
Good suggestion from AbbeysDad.

The real problem here is the ADA substrate. I have never used this, but AbbeysDad has indicated it is known for ammonia issues, and this is not surprising. As I said before, all "soil" tanks have ammonia issues for up to six months. What about removing this stuff? Play sand alone would certainly be better for the fish and plants. I include plants because the sort of plants you have in a discus habitat are not going to be high-tech. At least I hope not. Fish just want clean water with the right parameters, so that should be the focus in my view--which I admit not everyone would share.
 
Just an update on this, (3 months later)- drawing on all the really informative responses everyone took the time to write I managed to do the swap completely successfully.

N.B. as much as I do love my new soil substrate I would not recommend anyone else pursue the same course of action because it is simply not worth the struggle and as Byron pointed out: unnecessary unless one is planning on growing high tech plants.

But what I did was relatively simple:
  • I transferred the fish to a clear bucket as AbbeysDad suggested.
  • I rinsed the substrate thoroughly and repeatedly to remove as much initial ammonia as possible.
  • I then removed all the water from the tank and stored it in separate buckets.
  • I now added my substrate to the empty tank and refilled with 75% RO water and 25% old water from the buckets.
  • I performed 50% water changes daily and dosed API ammo-lock daily, (while running my filter) for 2 and a half weeks.
  • I then tested with the Seachem Multi-Test Ammonia Test Kit until the test results read that there was no NH3 at all present in the tank.
  • After 14 days of testing daily and not detecting any presence of free ammonia whatsoever I returned the Discus to the tank.
  • Three months down the line all the fish are happy and healthy as ever and plant-life is flourishing, (total ammonia tests are reading 0).
Hope this is helpful info for anyone who is considering doing something similar.

Cameron
 

Most reactions

trending

Staff online

Back
Top