Cycling nightmare - help!!!

[Barneykirk3]

Hi all

Having a few problems so thought I would ask here for help or solutions. Firstly I have a Juwel Rio 125 litre tank with their BioFlowM filter. The tank has fine sand as the substrate and plastic/silk plants and a few ornaments.
I started tank on 7th January. My tap water had 0 ammmonia, 0 nitrites and approximately 2.5ppm nitrates.Treated the water with Seachem Prime, set temperature to 25c and then on 8th I added 3ppm of ammonia. On the 12th Jan ammonia was 1.5ppm, 15th 1.0ppm, 18th around 0.75ppm and then 21st under 0.75ppm. All this time nitrites have been 0ppm. I did increase temperature to 28c around the 18th.
On the 21st in frustration I topped up ammonia to 3ppm and added Tetra Start safe as thought this might help the nitrites. Have been checking everyday and ammonia dropped from 3.0ppm to 1.5ppm, to 1.25ppm and today approx. 1.10ppm. I still have 0 nitrites and nitrates are 2.5ppm as at the start and understand this isn't right. PH has stayed steady.
Can anyone let me know what i'm doing wrong, if I should empty tank and start over, or anything else that might help. I have soft water with a GH of 75ppm if that helps.
Any help very much needed and appreciated.

Dave

 

[Ch4rlie]

Firstly, this may seem like a dumb question but what kind of test kit are you using and are the tests still in date?

Secondly, if you are using a liquid based test kit such as API Freshwater Master kit, then are you cleaning the test tubes before and after each test?

Thirdly, taking the sample of water into your test tubes should be take from at least 2 inches below the water surface. Water surface may contain natural oils, scum and tiny debris/residue that could get into the test tube with the water and may affect your tests.

Fourth, when shaking the test tubes to mix the reagents with your tank water, do be sure to use the caps provided rather than your finger or thumb, again oils or residue from your fingers may have a effect on test results.

And lastly - Is your filter on and at a speed thats making plenty of water ripples on the water surface? This helps ensure there is oxygen exchange taking place in the water column in the tank and that will help the bacterias.

Pretty obvious stuff really but always worth asking to be doubly sure its not the testing procedure or the kit thats potentially altering expected results.

One factor that may be of significence is you have very soft water, this can have a bearing on the cycling process. Can you provide more information regarding your tap water, kH as well as the gH (I know you provided 75ppm for gH but double check this to be 100% sure) which there are tests you can do if you have them or easier yet you can obtain numbers from your local water authority website online.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Hi

Quick silly question, I have a bioflowM filter, didn't see anywhere to increase speed, am I missing something obvious. The are ripples on the top of the water , put not sure how many plenty is.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Firstly, this may seem like a dumb question but what kind of test kit are you using and are the tests still in date?

Secondly, if you are using a liquid based test kit such as API Freshwater Master kit, then are you cleaning the test tubes before and after each test?

Thirdly, taking the sample of water into your test tubes should be take from at least 2 inches below the water surface. Water surface may contain natural oils, scum and tiny debris/residue that could get into the test tube with the water and may affect your tests.

Fourth, when shaking the test tubes to mix the reagents with your tank water, do be sure to use the caps provided rather than your finger or thumb, again oils or residue from your fingers may have a effect on test results.

And lastly - Is your filter on and at a speed thats making plenty of water ripples on the water surface? This helps ensure there is oxygen exchange taking place in the water column in the tank and that will help the bacterias.

Pretty obvious stuff really but always worth asking to be doubly sure its not the testing procedure or the kit thats potentially altering expected results.

One factor that may be of significence is you have very soft water, this can have a bearing on the cycling process. Can you provide more information regarding your tap water, kH as well as the gH (I know you provided 75ppm for gH but double check this to be 100% sure) which there are tests you can do if you have them or easier yet you can obtain numbers from your local water authority website online.

!. Using API test kits and in date.
2. I rinse them out in water after I use them, should I use washing up liquid as well?
3. Will try and take water from lower down.
4. Always use the caps so that's ok.
5. Queries in reply above.

GH was calculated from water company and believe KH is 60ppm.

 

[Ch4rlie]

API liquid test kit is a popluar choice and usually fairly reliable as long as instructions are followed to the letter for more accurate test readings.

That's good rinsing out the test tubes in water.

FYI, NEVER wash anything to do with fish tank equipment with washing up liquid, a big no-no. This stuff pretty much lethal for anything thats in the water column in your tank.

Some filters do not have an adjustable flow arrangement, if thats the case, nto a lot you can do about that, just ensure the nozzle is pointing out awy fromt he filter, not pointing to the nearest glass which could slow the flow down. Just as long as there is ripple occuring on the water surface, that should be fine.

75ppm gH is fairly soft water and having the kH at 60 ppm which is around 3.3 to 3.4dH (1dH = 17.8ppm) this is pretty low. kH which is used to keep your pH at a more steady level, acting like a buffer, the lower the number the more unsteady the pH will be.

This low kH can cause problems for cycling. The addition of inorganic carbon may help raise your kH, such as crushed seashells.

 

[StandbySetting]

Are there any plants in the tank at all?

 

[Barneykirk3]

Are there any plants in the tank at all?

No, all artificial im afraid

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Howdy Barney,

Looks like a standard cycle with low kH. These are tougher, because the bacteria require three things: ammonia/nitrite, oxygen and inorganic carbon. The inorganic carbon is what you have in low supply.

As Ch4rlie mentioned, adding a bit of crushed coral can increase the kH and provide a quick boost of carbonate (inorganic carbon) to the bacteria. If you can't find that, standard chalk is also calcium carbonate and will work. A bit of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate) will also do the trick. Baking soda would be the last option of the 3 though... I wouldn't add much, because the bacteria won't have that readily available once the tank is up and running long term.


You claim the pH has remained steady. What is the pH reading? Lower pH is another thing that generally makes the bacteria take a bit longer to colonize... the good news with that is that low pH also means that ammonia is less toxic than in other set-ups.

This is going to require a bit of patience, more so than many other cycles. The tank WILL cycle, but it will take a bit longer. Its worth it in the end though. You will have peace of mind. Many of the species you were looking at are very sensitive to ammonia.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Someone mentioned sodium bicarb to me, but I cant remember how much to put in. will try and find how much. My PH has stayed stable at 7.0, I was told to keep an eye on it due to low KH.

Edit: 5 teaspoons of bicarb I have been told as someone used 1 teaspoon in a 25 litre tank.

 

[StevenF]

For starters a GH of 75 and a KH is normal for uncontaminated mountain streem water. Low number would be below 30 for both numbers (distilled or RO water for example).

because the bacteria require three things: ammonia/nitrite, oxygen and inorganic carbon

Bacteria need a lot more than NH3,NO2, O, and C. The also need Phosphorous, potassium, sodium, sulfur, calsium, Iron magnessium and host of other trace elements. Basically bacteria nutritional needs are similar to plants with a few extra elements tossed in. If you water is short on several or even one of these the bacteria may not grow. If you try and cycle a glass of RO water with ammonia nothing willl happen other than the ammonia will eventually evaporate in to the air. Sodium Bicarbonate will address two of those but not the rest.

You could try dosing the tank with a good plant fertilizer such as Seachem Flourish comprehensive. Or you could put some food in the tank. As that decays it will release many of the nutrients needed. Or you could add sodium bicarbonate, plus epsom salt (magnessium sulfate) and a decorative sea shell (calcium carbonate) but that still doesn't address iron, potassium, and the trace nutrients. Honestly a good plant fertilizer would work better and would be faster than food. The only other thing I can think of is that a small amount of algae may be in the tank or floating in the water ant that may have consumed all the nitrate, nitrite, or nitrate. But I would explect that you would be able to see that.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You are correct, StevenF. I oversimplified.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Thanks Steve

Silly question time, I don't have live plants. Would it affect anything with no plants in tank?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The only concern would be algae, but there's no reason to cycle with the light on the tank anyway.

 

[StevenF]

Silly question time, I don't have live plants. Would it affect anything with no plants in tank?

Plants need a lot of nitrogen to grow so if all the macro and trace elements are available to them they will consume ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. So a planted tank can register zero ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. my tanks frequently does.That is why StandBySetting asked that question. So in theory you don't need to cycle if you have healthy growing plants.

Unfortunately theory and reality are different. If you are deficient in something such as potassium or calcium your plants may not grow and may not consume nitrogen. Unfortunately it can be very hard to determine what the deficiency is and how to correct it. That can expose fish to ammonia, nitrite and stress or kill them.
In my case I tried plants when I first set up my aquarium. All my plants died but I got lucky and didn't loss any fish. Don't know how I managed that.

I think it is a better idea to get the tank cycle with ammonia but without plants. Once it is cycled you can add plants and then fish. If the plants have problems the fish won't suffer.

For now I would recommend you try a fertilzier (Seachem Flourish comprehensive is the best one I have used and it works for many people) and or try adding a small amount of food to the tank. I would avoid Tetra, API, and aqueon fertilizers. They are either deficient in a lot of elements are or in the case of Aqueon only one critical one.

 

[Barneykirk3]

The only concern would be algae, but there's no reason to cycle with the light on the tank anyway.

There doesn't seem to be any algae in tank, is that a problem?