Cycling An Empty Tank

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Well, that depends...
 
If they react with the vinegar, you've identified where the TDS is coming from, and why the pH is higher than your other established tank.  Then, it becomes a matter of whether or not you want the pH to be that high or not.   That pH and TDS would be ideal for African cichlids, livebearers or rainbowfish.   A 4 foot tank would also work for all of the fish I just mentioned.  They may not be what you are looking for though, which would determine your next step.  
 
 
If you want a lower pH, then you have to remove those rocks from the tank... water changes will bring the pH and TDS back more in line with your established tank's numbers (though every tank is unique, so the numbers are usually a little different).  
 
 
 
Now, if the rocks don't react, then you still have the mystery.

Oh, to add to that... African cichlids are unlikely to be what you want, given the plant situation... which would mean that livebearers and rainbowfish would be the best options.   Honestly, rainbowfish (with a few livebearers mixed in) in a planted tank can be an amazing display, and is one that you might want to seriously consider.
 
If they fizz, they are raising the pH. If this is the case you will find it impossible to lower the pH and hold it there.
 
One other note. I went through two of the Hanna pH testers before I went out and got a decent monitor. My impression is the inexpensive testers for pH are not very reliable/accurate over time. They worked fine out of the box but after a couple of months they were not very good, even with recalibration.
 
I have tested the stones and they do not react when immersed in vinegar.
 
The reason the small tank has lower pH and higher TDS is because I have mixed RO water in it. But it is much harder to mix RO on the large tank because it is twice the volume so I would need serious quantities of RO that I do not have.
 
 
Today's measurements:
 
pH = 8.4
TDS = 390
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites = very high, off scale
 
I added 6ml of ammonia. This will raise the ammonia to around 1.5ppm. The tank will clear it in one day and a bit maybe.
 
I am just wondering how long will it take before the nitrites go down.
 
The more ammonia added the longer before the nitrites come down. So, you want to add nothing now for 4-5 days, unless the nitrites fall. It could take a week, possibly two, for the nitrites to get back on the scale.



The pH issue makes sense now. Sorry, I must have missed that before.
 
There is a reason that the cycling article here is very specific about both how much ammonia to add an when. The reason for this is that the single greatest stalled of cycles is nitrite and the cause of this is adding too much ammonia and/or adding it too often.
 
If we add too much ammonia early on, the risk is developing the wrong strains of ammonia oxidizing bacteria. We want those that can thrive in the typically lower concentrations of ammonia produced in an established tank. The basic guideline for ammonia during fishless cycling is never to allow the concentration to exceed about 6.4 ppm on an API kit (this is 5 ppm using the niitrogen scale).
 
But the bigger risk comes from the nitrite that results. Our test use the total ion scale and the guideline here for the maximum level of nitrite is 16.4 ppm. The problem is that hobby kits do not read that high and this means one must be able to do diluted testing. This makes cycling more work and more complex.
 
The article here was designed to make all of the unnecessary. If one follows both the dose level and the dose frequency by following the article to the letter, it is not possible to ever have either too much ammonia or too much nitrite such that they stall of even kill the cycle. The amount and frequency of the ammonia dose was based on the science behind the nitrogen cycle bacteria in general and specifically those we want in tanks at the start.
 
The most common reason folks make a mistake regarding nitrite it they mistakenly assume that if a tank can process ammonia doses to 0 in 24 hours, it is OK to add more ammonia. The problem is people cannot see how much nitrite this is making. When one hits 5 ppm on their API nitrite kit, its at the limit. So a 5 ppm reading may be 5 ppm, or it may be 8 ppm or it may be 18 ppm. They will all look the same. The first two are OK levels to have during cycling, the last one is not.
 
Finally, the bacteria are a lot more hardy than most realize and they do not need to be fed every day. The cycling article here takes advantage of this fact to insure one doesn't overdose ammonia when it is followed.
 
Many thanks for the elaborate reply. I must have misunderstood the guide because I seem to remember something like "if at any time ammonia drops below 0.25ppm and nitrites are over Xppm then add more ammonia".
 
Based on the explanation above I will refrain from adding more ammonia for a while.
 
On the 2nd June I was forced to make a 99% water change. I drained the tank almost fully in order to provide supports on the cabinet (it is a Juwel Rio 300 and the cabinet is made of soft cake decorating materials).
 
After I braced the cabinet, I refilled using 100% tap water. I added 6ml of ammonia that should give me 1.65ppm.
 
Two days later, 4th June, I had 0 ammonia and 5+ nitrites.
 
Therefore I am still waiting for the nitrite eating bacteria to do their bit but it is taking too long.
 
Is there a way to speed things up a bit? How about the bottled bacteria, surely these should help kick start the colonies?
 
Yes, you can do that.  The ones we've seen have the most success with around here are Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra Safestart.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
This link will be of interest to you - here's the relevant section:


OTHER SOURCES OF BACTERIA
 
While bio-media from a cycled tank are likely to hold high concentrations of the desired bacteria to put into a new tank, they are is not the only source. In any tank the bacteria will colonize any and all of the best places for them to live. Because the bacteria attach themselves to hard surfaces via a bio-film they create, they cannot actively seek out food, it must come to them. Therefore, the best places are those with good circulation to bring them ammonia/nitrite/nitrate oxygen, carbon etc. They are also light sensitive, so they tend to be in places not in direct light. The following will all bring in bacteria/cycling help (they are listed in order from most to least helpful):
 
 
Cycled Bio-Media-      
 
Under normal conditions, in an established tank, the largest concentration of nitrifying bacteria should be found in the bio-media inside the filter. This includes such things as sponges, ceramic noodles, bio-rocks, bio-balls etc. It is best not to remove more than 25% of such media from a cycled tank as it can result in a cycling related spike that can be a problem for the established donor tank. It is best to keep cycled media moist when transporting it 
 
 
Live Plants-      
 
These offer a double way to help. They will host some of the needed bacteria. But they will also consume ammonia (as NH4) which reduces the amount of bacteria it will take to keep a tank cycled. The more plants, the more help. If these are used as an emergency measure and you plan to remove them later, only remove one third of them at a time. Wait a week or so between removals. This prevents an ammonia/nitrite spike due to removing too many at one go. Live plants also consume nitrate, another bonus in an established tank.
 
 
Substrate from a Cycled Tank-      
 
Some amount of bacteria colonizes the upper layers of the substrate in a tank. (To a depth of about ½ in. - 1.25 cm. if not planted) Thus taking surface sand or gravel from an established tank will bring in some amount bacteria. Smaller quantities can go into a bag in your filter or just drop the bag into the tank.
 
Decor from a Cycled Tank-     
 
Some amount of bacteria also colonizes the underside surfaces of aquarium décor such as rocks, drift wood, caves, commercial decorations etc. So, taking some of these things from an established tank will help to bring in some amount of bacteria.
(Leave the fish behind J)
 
Filter Squeezings- from sponge type media taken from an established tank will put some bacteria into a tank. This looks quite messy but it really does help. The cycled media is simply “rinsed out” in water in the new tank. (Bits of the bio-film in which the bacteria live will be detached and end up in the new tank water and then find a home there.
 
Used Filter Floss- is usually a poor media for seeding a tank. Its purpose is to fill up with gunk which makes it a poor long term home for bacteria. It may be better than nothing, but it is of minimal help here. The filthier and more clogged it is, the less nitrifying bacteria it can support.
 
Note: If you cannot transfer any of the above things directly and need to park them for a bit, keeping them in dechlorinated tap or removed tank water is recommended to prevent drying out.
 
 
BOTTLED BACTERIA VS DONATED BACTERIA FROM AN ESTABLISHED TANK 
 
There are advantages and disadvantages for either method of adding bacteria:
 
- Bottled bacteria will cost more than + donated bacteria from cycled tanks which is usually free or sent for the cost of shipping.
+ Bottled bacteria will usually be easier to find than enough - donated bacteria laden items from cycled tanks. It may take more than one source for this.
+ Bottled bacteria should be more accurate in terms of knowing what you add being sufficient to do the job. There is no way to know beforehand how much - donated bacteria you may be getting from other tanks. This does not mean one cannot get enough, you might even get more than you need.
+ Bottled bacteria should always be disease free, the same cannot be said of - donated items from cycled tanks.
- Bottled bacteria can be mishandled or out of date rendering it either dead or virtually useless. It is not a 100% guaranteed solution. + Donated bacteria should normally be live, especially if not shipped.
+ Donated bacteria will likely include some of the other non-cycling related bacteria which will also establish over time in a tank. - Bottled bacteria usually won’t have these other bacteria included.
 
 
PREPARING YOUR TANK FOR BACTERIA
 
It is important to insure proper conditions in your tank before adding bacteria. Both high ammonia and high nitrite can be harmful to bacteria. To avoid this problem test for both. For Dr.Tim’s (or for seeding from an established tank), if ammonia is near or over 5 ppm and/or nitrite is not clearly under 15 ppm do a 50% water change and add back water dechlored before it is added to the tank. Tetra Safe Start requires these things be even lower and advises one not to use dechlors etc. 24 hours before adding their product and for the next 2 weeks thereafter. Whatever commercial product you might use, be sure to follow their directions to the letter rather than those in the typical cycling article or for another product. (If you are using an API (or similar) nitrite test kit you may have to perform a diluted test as this kit tops out at 5 ppm. (Directions for doing this are in Part II of this article.) 
 
Only dose dechlor at normal strength- Do Not Over Dose. Ideally, you want to do this the day before adding bacteria to the tank. Test for ammonia and nitrite again before adding the bacteria to be certain the conditions are OK and to know what the levels are. We also suggest that you buy more bacteria than you think you need if going this route. It is better to have too much than to have too little. The same applies to seeding bacteria taken from established tanks, too much is better than too little.
 
 
HAVE YOU ADDED ENOUGH BACTERIA?
 
 If you have added sufficient bacteria to get the tank cycled, you should not be able to detect either ammonia or nitrite within a day or two. Therefore you will need to test for both ammonia and nitrite at 24 hour intervals. You may test at 12 hour intervals to see if things are moving faster and staying safe, but it is the 24 hour tests that matter.
 
For a tank without fish, a fully cycled tank should be able to process between 2 and 3 ppm of ammonia and show 0 nitrite as well, in 24 hours or less. If you have switched to fishless cycling, and you do not get 0/0 readings within 24 hours of adding 2 or 3 ppm of ammonia, follow these directions:
 
If ammonia and nitrite do not both read zero, continue to test daily. Whenever ammonia is at .25 ppm or less andnitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, add the same amount of ammonia and test in 24 hours. Follow this pattern of testing and adding until both tests read 0 ppm. The cycle should not take much longer to be completed.
 
For a tank with fish, a fully cycled tank should also test 0/0 for ammonia. If you have added bacteria to a tank with fish, you cannot add ammonia, but you must still test. If you are almost, but not quite, cycled, you may detect lower level readings for ammonia and or nitrite. Numbers should clearly be under 1 ppm for both ammonia and nitrite 24 hours after you have added bacteria. If they are not under 1 ppm, you have not added enough bacteria. Add more or remove some fish. You may also need to do a water change if the numbers are above 1 ppm or if they are rising.
 
 
 
Spoke too soon !
 
Today's measurement (about 10 mins ago) produced a surprise: 0 ammonia, and 0.25ppm nitrites!
 
I think it's almost there, I will wait for 0 nitrites, then feed ammonia, and expect to see 0s in 24-48 hours.
 
Congrats!
 
You are super close.   What are you putting in the tank when the time comes?
 
Thanks.
 
That will be the subject of another post of course. This is what it looks like today:

 
 

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Lovely.  I really like the large pebbles!   Looking forward to your new thread.  ;)
 
All 0 readings today. To be on the safe side, I have added 6ml ammonia, that should raise it to around 1.3ppm, and see what it looks like tomorrow. If clear then surely we will be good to go.
 
andyG44 said:
All 0 readings today. To be on the safe side, I have added 6ml ammonia, that should raise it to around 1.3ppm, and see what it looks like tomorrow. If clear then surely we will be good to go.
 
 
:-
 
So yesterday I added 6ml ammonia, after a while measured around 1ppm.
 
And today I have
0 ammonia
5+ nitrites
pH=8.0
TDS=300
 
So it seems during the first 24 hours 1ppm ammonia gets fully converted to nitrites, now to see how long until nitrites go away.
 

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