Bronze Corydoras Itching please help!!

[Charlieperrott]

I need some help with my Bronze Corydoras !!

0 ppm Ammonia, 0 ppm Nitrite, 5 ppm Nitrate
80L planted tank, sand substrate.

One of my corys was itching after a 25% water change of RO/DI from the fish store yesterday, 3 hours after i fed them this morning one was itching badly, a few of the others are doing it a bit, the food is in date but open for 1 and a half years, I cant see any Physical signs of disease. Please help me, Thank you.

 

[Demeter32]

What pH are you keeping them at? If the tank is a different pH than the pH of the distilled water (7) then they might be feeling off because of a pH swing.

There's two other causes that come to mind as well. One being ich, which would be little specs of white here and there on the fish. The other being velvet, which can be seen by shining a flashlight on them in the dark. If it looks like there fish is covered in gold just or pollen-like stuff then it might be velvet.

 

[Charlieperrott]

What pH are you keeping them at? If the tank is a different pH than the pH of the distilled water (7) then they might be feeling off because of a pH swing.

There's two other causes that come to mind as well. One being ich, which would be little specs of white here and there on the fish. The other being velvet, which can be seen by shining a flashlight on them in the dark. If it looks like there fish is covered in gold just or pollen-like stuff then it might be velvet.

so i have just tested my PH its 7.8 !! just tested the RO water and its 8 PH so, way to high, I think I will be getting RO without menerals until the PH falls back down, how long should i do this over ? and i cannot see any signs of ich on any of them, i will try and have a look for vevlet. do you think putting RO with PH 8 in would have done this ?
Thank you very much

 

[Byron]

Respecting the water parameters and changes...when doing a water change, the parameters should be close. We do not have your GH and KH, but the latter especially "buffers" pH. When you mix the different waters, it is important to know what will likely occur. For example, a sudden pH shift of 1 degree or more can cause shock.

I would wonder why you are using RO water, especially one having minerals? RO usually means pure water, with no GH/KH and a neutral (or close to it) pH.

A quick comment on ich and velvet...both these parasites first attack fish in the gills and we cannot see the spots or dusting. Flashing is the first sign. If the parasite (whichever) worsens, then the external spots/dusting will become visible and increase without treatment. At the beginning stage, with some flashing, fish can often build up a resistance and the flashing may cease. I've had this happen several times over the years, without any treatment. Clean and stable water and avoiding stress as much as possible are the best "treatments." I'm not saying this is the issue here, but with newly acquired fish or with fish suddenly under a severe stress, this can occur. These parasites can remain in an aquarium for months without an actual infection appearing.

Byron.

 

[Charlieperrott]

Respecting the water parameters and changes...when doing a water change, the parameters should be close. We do not have your GH and KH, but the latter especially "buffers" pH. When you mix the different waters, it is important to know what will likely occur. For example, a sudden pH shift of 1 degree or more can cause shock.

I would wonder why you are using RO water, especially one having minerals? RO usually means pure water, with no GH/KH and a neutral (or close to it) pH.

A quick comment on ich and velvet...both these parasites first attack fish in the gills and we cannot see the spots or dusting. Flashing is the first sign. If the parasite (whichever) worsens, then the external spots/dusting will become visible and increase without treatment. At the beginning stage, with some flashing, fish can often build up a resistance and the flashing may cease. I've had this happen several times over the years, without any treatment. Clean and stable water and avoiding stress as much as possible are the best "treatments." I'm not saying this is the issue here, but with newly acquired fish or with fish suddenly under a severe stress, this can occur. These parasites can remain in an aquarium for months without an actual infection appearing.
Byron.

Okay so my GH 9 KH 13 drops, witch is to high, the reason i use RO is because my tap water has crazy nitrate reading and is harder than 12 drops GH/KH. so what do you suggest i do to lower it slowly without harm to the fish? do you suggest anything else to help with there itching, would Indian almond leaves help in anyway ? or if i do have ich or velvet how can i treat this ?
Thank you very much for your time in helping me and my corys

 

[Byron]

Okay so my GH 9 KH 13 drops, witch is to high, the reason i use RO is because my tap water has crazy nitrate reading and is harder than 12 drops GH/KH. so what do you suggest i do to lower it slowly without harm to the fish? do you suggest anything else to help with there itching, would Indian almond leaves help in anyway ? or if i do have ich or velvet how can i treat this ?
Thank you very much for your time in helping me and my corys

With respect to the flashing...the first thing to determine is the probable cause. To pin this down, one can only consider each possibility and rule it out (or confirm) to get at the most likely one. Adding medications, or using treatments, for a disease/issue is risky especially when it may not be relevant; more harm can be done.

I would recommend sorting out this water issue first. How long has this tank been running? Have tests for pH been consistent all along, until now, or varying? How long have you had the fish? We need to know all the data before we can suggest something.

If you dilute tap water with pure RO water (no additives), the GH and KH will reduce proportionally to the volume mixed. Example, a GH of 9 and KH of 13 should lower to GH 4-5 and KH 6-7 if you mix half tap with half pure RO. You should explain to us how you are mixing these, and what are "the minerals" added to the RO.

The pH of the tap water/RO mix will be "x". When this water is added to the tank during a partial water change, the KH will tend to keep it at "x." When you are adjusting water parameters, it is best to go slow and monitor the test results regularly until you have a good idea what to expect. It would be best not to have fish in the tank, but as that may not be feasible do smaller water changes and gradually increase them week by week, monitoring test results all along.

 

[Charlieperrott]

With respect to the flashing...the first thing to determine is the probable cause. To pin this down, one can only consider each possibility and rule it out (or confirm) to get at the most likely one. Adding medications, or using treatments, for a disease/issue is risky especially when it may not be relevant; more harm can be done.

I would recommend sorting out this water issue first. How long has this tank been running? Have tests for pH been consistent all along, until now, or varying? How long have you had the fish? We need to know all the data before we can suggest something.

If you dilute tap water with pure RO water (no additives), the GH and KH will reduce proportionally to the volume mixed. Example, a GH of 9 and KH of 13 should lower to GH 4-5 and KH 6-7 if you mix half tap with half pure RO. You should explain to us how you are mixing these, and what are "the minerals" added to the RO.

The pH of the tap water/RO mix will be "x". When this water is added to the tank during a partial water change, the KH will tend to keep it at "x." When you are adjusting water parameters, it is best to go slow and monitor the test results regularly until you have a good idea what to expect. It would be best not to have fish in the tank, but as that may not be feasible do smaller water changes and gradually increase them week by week, monitoring test results all along.

Yes medication is the last thing I want in my tank, my tank has been running for 2 years now, the pH has been consistent 7.2 until now, I have had the corys for 2 months and they have been happy and healthy until now. in the tank 80L I have 5 x Bronze corys, 5 x Kuhli loach, 1 x Golden gourami. so I have been getting RO water off my local fish store where they put the minerals in, im not to sure what they use, its a powder. i don't think I get build up of minerals in the buts I rinse them every time, they could be putting to much in? could I either get RO with half minerals or get two water buts one with and one without minerals and mix them? I also have some slate in the tank, it has a white line in it, is this calcium, could this be contributing to the hardness? I have attached a photo.

Okay yes unfortunately I do not have another tank cycled for the fish, so do you think if i do 4%-5% water change each day of half my normal amount of minerals, I can drip the water in over a four hour period would you suggest to change the amount of water changed, how often changed and the mineral content of the water im putting in?
Thank you for taking your time to help me

 

[Byron]

Yes medication is the last thing I want in my tank, my tank has been running for 2 years now, the pH has been consistent 7.2 until now, I have had the corys for 2 months and they have been happy and healthy until now. in the tank 80L I have 5 x Bronze corys, 5 x Kuhli loach, 1 x Golden gourami. so I have been getting RO water off my local fish store where they put the minerals in, im not to sure what they use, its a powder. i don't think I get build up of minerals in the buts I rinse them every time, they could be putting to much in? could I either get RO with half minerals or get two water buts one with and one without minerals and mix them? I also have some slate in the tank, it has a white line in it, is this calcium, could this be contributing to the hardness? I have attached a photo.

I'm still a tad confused over this adding of minerals. You are mixing tap water and RO water, correct? And the GH and KH from post #5 that I used in post #6 are tests of the tap water straight, correct? If I have correctly assume both points, then mixing pure RO (with no additives) with tap should provide decent water for the fish mentioned. I don't know what the nitrate issue is, but it would be similarly reduced so presumably OK.

Adding the minerals to the RO water is rather pointless to my thinking, as you want softer rather than harder water, for the fish anyway, and you will have all they need (and more) from the tap mix. Plants should be fine for hard minerals, though some other trace elements might be needed [I'll leave this for now]. It would be advisable to find out just what they have been adding; this might have been behind the pH fluctuations.

Slate itself is inert, but I can't say what the white lines might be. I wouldn't think this would cause too much of an increase in GH/KH/pH though, but then I don't know what it is nor how much of the rock you have.

Okay yes unfortunately I do not have another tank cycled for the fish, so do you think if i do 4%-5% water change each day of half my normal amount of minerals, I can drip the water in over a four hour period would you suggest to change the amount of water changed, how often changed and the mineral content of the water im putting in?

Partial water changes in general are best at significant volumes, say 50-60% of the tank volume is changed at one time, once a week. However, when you have water parameter adjustments, and uncertainty over the values, it is best to go slow until you know what is occurring. Again, I would stop adding "minerals," as this should not be necessary--can you test the GH of the tank water itself? And KH? This if not done already might tell us something.

I wouldn't go to the bother of drip. That is beneficial when acclimating new fish sometimes, but not for weekly water changes. If the parameters are really that far apart, something else has to be done to get them closer.

[I will be signing off now, but will check back tomorrow.]

 

[Charlieperrott]

I'm still a tad confused over this adding of minerals. You are mixing tap water and RO water, correct? And the GH and KH from post #5 that I used in post #6 are tests of the tap water straight, correct? If I have correctly assume both points, then mixing pure RO (with no additives) with tap should provide decent water for the fish mentioned. I don't know what the nitrate issue is, but it would be similarly reduced so presumably OK.

Adding the minerals to the RO water is rather pointless to my thinking, as you want softer rather than harder water, for the fish anyway, and you will have all they need (and more) from the tap mix. Plants should be fine for hard minerals, though some other trace elements might be needed [I'll leave this for now]. It would be advisable to find out just what they have been adding; this might have been behind the pH fluctuations.

Slate itself is inert, but I can't say what the white lines might be. I wouldn't think this would cause too much of an increase in GH/KH/pH though, but then I don't know what it is nor how much of the rock you have.



Partial water changes in general are best at significant volumes, say 50-60% of the tank volume is changed at one time, once a week. However, when you have water parameter adjustments, and uncertainty over the values, it is best to go slow until you know what is occurring. Again, I would stop adding "minerals," as this should not be necessary--can you test the GH of the tank water itself? And KH? This if not done already might tell us something.

I wouldn't go to the bother of drip. That is beneficial when acclimating new fish sometimes, but not for weekly water changes. If the parameters are really that far apart, something else has to be done to get them closer.
[I will be signing off now, but will check back tomorrow.]

Hello Byron,
I will try clear this up for you,
Tank parameters:
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
pH 7.8
GH 9 drops
KH 13 drops

Shop RO water with minerals parameters
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 0 ppm
pH 8.0
GH 8 drops
KH 8 drops
So for my normal water change I buy shop RO with minerals and add strait into the tank for a "normal hardness"
I dont use tap water to mix with the RO,
I can get shop RO without minerals to mix or add on its own to slowly lower the pH, GH and KH
This now makes me think that it might be something in my tank, maybe the slate I have 2 pieces roughly 10x10x3cm, I don't have any lead weights in there, I have a piece driftwood and I am soaking another piece ready to boil, this might help a little? and maybe adding pete balls to the filter (fluval 406) ?

I fertilise my tank once month with half dose, last dosed on the 01/03/17 just enough to keep the plants going in my sand substrate. I will go there tomorrow "today when you read this" to get some RO without minerals and ask what product there using.
With my weekly water change 30-40% I wont accumulate when adding, if im going to add RO on its own should I accumulate the 5% a day or so? how much would you recommend to replace daily?

I forgot to say I also have a family for 5 x amano shrimp in the tank too.
So I want the parameters to be about pH 6.5 - 7, GH 5-7 KH 6-8 if im correct?
I have attached a photo of the little guys that your helping
Thank you !!

 

[Byron]

That's cleared things. Find out what exactly they are adding. It would seem preferable (depending what it is) to add less so the GH, KH and pH are all lower.

The KH at 8 or 13 dKH is sufficient to buffer the pH, preventing it from fluctuating. This means it is not going to lower very much in the aquarium. Your numbers seem to confirm this.

The organic processes in any fish tank will tend to acidify the water, lowering the pH. The buffering capacity of the KH is primarily responsible for avoiding this, up to the capacity of the KH of course. So adding wood, etc is not going to do much. The only way to lower pH is to lower the GH/KH.

So with lower GH/KH/pH to begin with, you would need to monitor those (I am more concerned with pH when I do this, once I know the GH/KH levels). The fertilizer--which is it?--might increase GH but it is only changing by 1 d so I wouldn't worry about this. Controlling the additives is the key, then seeing where it all plays out. Every aquarium is different; I have 8 tanks, all under near-identical conditions (plants, water changes, fish loads, ferts, etc) but they behave in quite different ways once they are established.

Byron.

 

[Charlieperrott]

That's cleared things. Find out what exactly they are adding. It would seem preferable (depending what it is) to add less so the GH, KH and pH are all lower.

The KH at 8 or 13 dKH is sufficient to buffer the pH, preventing it from fluctuating. This means it is not going to lower very much in the aquarium. Your numbers seem to confirm this.

The organic processes in any fish tank will tend to acidify the water, lowering the pH. The buffering capacity of the KH is primarily responsible for avoiding this, up to the capacity of the KH of course. So adding wood, etc is not going to do much. The only way to lower pH is to lower the GH/KH.

So with lower GH/KH/pH to begin with, you would need to monitor those (I am more concerned with pH when I do this, once I know the GH/KH levels). The fertilizer--which is it?--might increase GH but it is only changing by 1 d so I wouldn't worry about this. Controlling the additives is the key, then seeing where it all plays out. Every aquarium is different; I have 8 tanks, all under near-identical conditions (plants, water changes, fish loads, ferts, etc) but they behave in quite different ways once they are established.
Byron.

Okay Good, they are adding "Tropic Marin Minerals" to my water, here is a link to the same one they use.
http://www.tropic-marin.com/suesswa...-mineral-tropic-fr-re-mineral-tropic/?lang=en

Okay so I need to lower my GH / KH for my ph to lower, I need to do it slowly while monitoring my pH, GH, KH
The fertiliser that I use is Flora Grow plant fertiliser, here is the link, http://www.aquariumonline.co.uk/pla...7qDNXMJopKiAOh1yh14H6nUbl1Tu_HE1ToaAohn8P8HAQ

So today the corys haven't itched once, i didnt feed them the other food and they seem to be okay, all seem healthy and active, I have now got 25L with and 25L without minerals, should I add a little bit of pure RO water ? 5% ? and re-test the next day ? yes just have to find the right balance !!

Charlie

 

[Byron]

Okay Good, they are adding "Tropic Marin Minerals" to my water, here is a link to the same one they use.
http/www.tropic-marin.com/suesswa...-mineral-tropic-fr-re-mineral-tropic/?lang=en

Okay so I need to lower my GH / KH for my ph to lower, I need to do it slowly while monitoring my pH, GH, KH

So today the corys haven't itched once, i didnt feed them the other food and they seem to be okay, all seem healthy and active, I have now got 25L with and 25L without minerals, should I add a little bit of pure RO water ? 5% ? and re-test the next day ? yes just have to find the right balance

I'm getting a better idea of what's going on here. If this were me, with soft water fish (cories, gourami...what else?) I would use much less, perhaps none. My tap water is 7 ppm GH which is less than half of 1 dGH, and no KH. I don't add anything except plant fertilizers (will come back to this) because I keep soft water fish, most of them wild caught. The pH in some tanks is below 5 (not sure how low, can't measure below 5), in others in the low 6's. I let it do what it wants, because it will at least be stable and consistent. It certainly has been, for 20 + years now. I also have plants, and i do 60% water changes once a week with tap water that fortunately has nothing in it that messes with this.

You also mention shrimp, and most of these need minerals for their exoskeleton. So it might be advisable to use some of the additive, but I would want it less than what they are obviously adding. I would recommend a GH around 4 dGH. The data at the link says it also raises Alkalinity (this is another name for KH) but the number suggests about half what the GH will be. They give 7 dGH and 4 dKH for the recommended level. You might get a container of this product yourself and do it at home, or get the store to do it, whichever. I don't know what they are charging you either way, so that is up to you. But I would try to get the GH/KH lower than what your tests indicate it now is in the RO water.

You could work toward this with the pure RO water you have now, mix it say half/half with mineralized water and see what transpires. Just go slow with any changes in the tank, to avoid shocking the fish. This may well have been the cause, or the fish may have been stressed and ich was present. The end of the flashing suggests you got through it, either way, so you don't want to restart it.

The fertiliser that I use is Flora Grow plant fertiliser, here is the link, http/www.aquariumonline.co.uk/pla...7qDNXMJopKiAOh1yh14H6nUbl1Tu_HE1ToaAohn8P8HAQ

Looking at the data, this would concern me. The product contains nitrate and phosphate. They say that in a moderately planted tank these two nutrients are not necessary, and I totally agree. Nitrate is not appreciated by fish, so the lower the better. Phosphate will be present in fish food and more than you will ever need unless you are running a high-tech setup with bright lighting and diffused CO2. I can't see how much nitrate or phosphate is included, but when the current bottle is gone I would look for something else. I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium, which has everything except phosphate, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen, all of which will occur naturally in the aquarium. If you get this, make sure it is the Comprehensive; they make several products under the "Flourish" line.

 

[Charlieperrott]

I'm getting a better idea of what's going on here. If this were me, with soft water fish (cories, gourami...what else?) I would use much less, perhaps none. My tap water is 7 ppm GH which is less than half of 1 dGH, and no KH. I don't add anything except plant fertilizers (will come back to this) because I keep soft water fish, most of them wild caught. The pH in some tanks is below 5 (not sure how low, can't measure below 5), in others in the low 6's. I let it do what it wants, because it will at least be stable and consistent. It certainly has been, for 20 + years now. I also have plants, and i do 60% water changes once a week with tap water that fortunately has nothing in it that messes with this.

You also mention shrimp, and most of these need minerals for their exoskeleton. So it might be advisable to use some of the additive, but I would want it less than what they are obviously adding. I would recommend a GH around 4 dGH. The data at the link says it also raises Alkalinity (this is another name for KH) but the number suggests about half what the GH will be. They give 7 dGH and 4 dKH for the recommended level. You might get a container of this product yourself and do it at home, or get the store to do it, whichever. I don't know what they are charging you either way, so that is up to you. But I would try to get the GH/KH lower than what your tests indicate it now is in the RO water.

You could work toward this with the pure RO water you have now, mix it say half/half with mineralized water and see what transpires. Just go slow with any changes in the tank, to avoid shocking the fish. This may well have been the cause, or the fish may have been stressed and ich was present. The end of the flashing suggests you got through it, either way, so you don't want to restart it.

Looking at the data, this would concern me. The product contains nitrate and phosphate. They say that in a moderately planted tank these two nutrients are not necessary, and I totally agree. Nitrate is not appreciated by fish, so the lower the better. Phosphate will be present in fish food and more than you will ever need unless you are running a high-tech setup with bright lighting and diffused CO2. I can't see how much nitrate or phosphate is included, but when the current bottle is gone I would look for something else. I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium, which has everything except phosphate, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen, all of which will occur naturally in the aquarium. If you get this, make sure it is the Comprehensive; they make several products under the "Flourish" line.

So I have 1 x Golden gourami, 5 x Bronze corydoras, 5 x kuhli Loach, 5 x Amano shrimp, 5 x Assassin snails
I have just purchased a RO/DI unit. although psi is not high enough so i will be purchasing a booster pump soon, this will be cheaper in the long run and is always on tap. i will be purchasing my own minerals to so i can control the parameters better. alright i will have a look at that fertiliser, makes complete sense.
okay so i will keep adding a half mix of mineral RO water into the tank very slowly over the next few weeks, keeping a close eye on the fish and parameters. and try to get my tank stable again

Thank you very much Byron!!

Charlie

 

[Byron]

So I have 1 x Golden gourami, 5 x Bronze corydoras, 5 x kuhli Loach, 5 x Amano shrimp, 5 x Assassin snails
I have just purchased a RO/DI unit. although psi is not high enough so i will be purchasing a booster pump soon, this will be cheaper in the long run and is always on tap. i will be purchasing my own minerals to so i can control the parameters better. alright i will have a look at that fertiliser, makes complete sense.
okay so i will keep adding a half mix of mineral RO water into the tank very slowly over the next few weeks, keeping a close eye on the fish and parameters. and try to get my tank stable again

Thank you very much Byron!!

Charlie

OK, those fish are all soft water, so GH/KH can be as low as you like as far as the fish. The shrimp as I said are maybe different.

With respect to the mixing. Getting the GH/KH down will not impact the fish much, just reduce it by maybe 2-3 degrees at a time. It is the pH that I watch more closely. A few decimal places is fine, but not at or more than 1 degree. And "degree" with pH means example from pH 8.0 down to 7.0, that is one degree.

 

[Charlieperrott]

OK, those fish are all soft water, so GH/KH can be as low as you like as far as the fish. The shrimp as I said are maybe different.

With respect to the mixing. Getting the GH/KH down will not impact the fish much, just reduce it by maybe 2-3 degrees at a time. It is the pH that I watch more closely. A few decimal places is fine, but not at or more than 1 degree. And "degree" with pH means example from pH 8.0 down to 7.0, that is one degree.

Okay in this that case then I will try to take ph down by 0.2 degree and make sure GH/KH are no more than 2 degrees difference in the water that im going to to change, would you suggest doing 5% a day a keep monitoring or 20% each week or what ?
Thank you,

Charlie