Black "Scab" on male guppy tail fin?

[Vengified]

Just a quick update/note for anyone interested, especially @Colin_T Roney is still in quarantine, still hanging in there, no real change as of yet. Definitely stressing me though, because in the early evening, he seems to "give up" and let's his tail get pulled towards the filter intake. But eventually he decides to go swim around, and he is eating, a little. I think he is bored or sad.

Also, on another note, what I thought was possibly flashing or flicking or an itch, is actually the guppies being very ingenious! They look like they are just flashing on the gravel substrate, but only sometimes. I just put it together tonight, watching them after feeding time: they do the flick in the substrate, to dislodge pieces of food they see, and the food bounces up a little, and they grab it! They even hit pieces of gravel sometimes, to uncover food! I think I may need to go back to turning off filters when I feed, since I have an HOB and the UGF with powerhead both going, they don't get all the food before it gets knocked down. They certainly do pick it up off the floor though!

 

[Colin_T]

If the fish is being sucked towards the filter in the evening, there is too much flow and you need to turn it down. If the filter is too strong, he will be spending all day swimming against the current and then is exhausted at night.

 

[Vengified]

The filter in the tiny tank is INCREDIBLY small. It shoots out 3 little tiny streams that hit a plate, and dribble in the water. Plus I have a sponge in it which has seriously slowed the flow. There is no adjustment though. I also have a bubbler in there, turned all the way as low as it will go with a control valve, just for additional aeration. But I turn that off at night. Tonight he positioned himself better, and isn't having that issue. I also put a little cave rock decoration in the tank with him, but he wasnt using it last night. He just backed into the corner with the filter, then let himself get sucked in, but tonight he has been on the other side, or down a bit lower in his cave. If I notice him drifting at all, I'll turn the filter off though.

 

[Colin_T]

don't turn the filter off at night. He will need some surface turbulence to keep the oxygen levels up. Also if there is no surface turbulence at night, the pH might drop and that would make things worse.

Just monitor him. there is some current in there and when he is sleeping or relaxed he gets drawn to the intake. As long as it doesn't suck him inside or damage him, he should be fine.

 

[Vengified]

Yea, it's not strong enough, or large enough to suck any part of him in. Just inside the slots for the intake, is the sponge as well, so there is no way he could possibly get sucked in.

My powerhead is a different story... Last night, I noticed the venturi tube had come out of the hole in the outlet. Unfortunately, one of my otos somehow found that outlet, and shoved his head into it! I saw a motionless tail sticking out, freaked, pulled the piece off, and he was moving! He managed to back himself out of it though, and is still fine so far! I should have taken a picture, but when I noticed it, I went into panic mode to get him out.

 

[Vengified]

@Colin_T Hey man, if you are still here, I could use your guidance! Or anyone else who might have thoughts/opinions on the situation?

I gave Roney his quarantine, and he seemed to perk up somewhat in the small aquarium, so after a week, I gradually reduced salinity, got him acclimated, and got him back into my 20gallon with his buddy and the 3 smaller guys. He was ECSTATIC! Playing, zipping around, eating algae, etc. Everything seemed great, until about 48 hours later now, and he is doing what is seen in the pictures and videos I will add below.

My parameters are good, in fact they are GREAT, and WAY better than they were before when he was in the tank, since I am running 0/0 for Amm/Nitrite, and only 10ppm for Nitrate, ph 7.8, temp 78°F. Everything is so good, I randomly found a baby RCS, and the one that seemed like she had eggs, then seemed like she had none, others said the same.

And while at the LFS, saw a SUPER berries RCS, and took her home, and she popped and saw several itty bitty babies. All the shrimp have molted many times, Otos are doing great, other 4 guppies are doing great. It's just poor Roney that has this going on? In some of the pix/vids, it appears like he is touching the surface, but I assure you, he is not actually breaching the surface of the water, and I think if it was bad water, the other fish would at least show some symptoms, and especially invertebrates. But he does not appear to be gasping, rather just floating near the surface. He DOES eat, and seems normal when eating, but besides that and maybe 10% of the time he plays, the other 90% of the last day, he has done this floating thing.

Now, my question is, although a certain diagnosis seems out of the question, and the recovery tank seemed to help, and then failed, is it MORE cruel to let him keep going, or put him to rest? I HATE the thought of losing him, or ANY of the creatures, but I also dont want to be causing him unnecessary pain, or have him in solitude and sadness in a solo tank, which is course the small tank is HORRIBLE for water quality and not cycled, not even water in it right now.

What should I do? Let him go on his own or see if he pulls through? Or should I get some advice on sending him to fishy heaven?

 

[Colin_T]

How did you dilute the salt level and medication in his tank, 10% water changes each day for a week or something else?

He is gasping at the surface and is near the filter outlet so he is looking for more oxygen. There could be a couple of reasons for this. He has lost fitness by being in the smaller tank and not doing as much exercise. He has withdrawal from the medication. Or he has gill flukes or a gill fungus, however this is unlikely considering he was just treated.

If he is eating well, then I would monitor him over the next few days and see how he goes. If it is withdrawal he should come good in a few days, and if it is fitness that will improve over the next few weeks. So as long as he keeps eating well, then just monitor and see how he does.

When a fish stops eating and gasps at the surface, then it is time to euthanize, but while they are eating, let them live.

 

[Vengified]

Thanks for responding so quick @Colin_T !

As per your previous suggestion/concern, I discontinued the medication immediately. I did follow your MSDS link, and did seem to be nasty stuff. I'm not a total health nut (love my bacon) but I do think that the less synthetic stuff we put in ourselves, the better off we are, and I wouldn't subject a voiceless creature to dangers I wouldn't risk myself.

The acclimation/water change process, was kind of mixed. I was doing massive water changes (70-90%) every day, to ensure No2/Nh3 (or whichever I'd ammonia/nitrite) was staying as low as possible. But for measuring salt, I was using a half teaspoon measuring cup (6×1/2tsp=1Tbs) so I kept doing water changes daily of that 70-90, but subtracting one half teaspoon each day, then did a day no salt, then the last day, instead of adding new water, I dripprf water from main tank, into emergency tank for about an hour, or about 3:1 ratio.

As for his activity, he is lethargic most of the time, like shown, but at feeding time, he keeps up with the other fishes just fine. Even out does some of the smaller guys and shoves them out of the way. He can eat with filter flow unrestricted, though I usually put a large pore sponge in front and close to water, to severely slow it. So he CAN swim fast and normal, just doesn't want to like he used to. He will also chase Sophie around a bit, but not much. And Sophie seems to "protect" him a lot from the little ones trying to pester him.

I will follow your advice, continue to monitor, let him keep going, and hope he pulls through! I thank you again for your attention and advice, I hate to be a nuisance, but you are a "GuppyPedia" and an invaluable resource!

 

[Vengified]

Poor little Roney is wasting away. I tried some Melafix also now, as the other fish fins seemed to be getting rather raggedy, and they are already improving after 3 days of treatment, but Roney just keeps progressing further and further towards a depressing, emaciated, lethargic, poor fish.

I have always done bloodworms once or twice a week, and then TetraMin tropical flakes as a staple food, but the LFS said it looked like a vitamin deficiency, so I decided to try different food. I got some Omega One color mini pellets, and also some fresh, certified organic spinach, and blanched the spinach and hung it in there. The fish love the pellets, but the spinach hanging on the clip, they weren't sure of what to do with it. After tearing it up and letting it float, they gladly ate it.

Anyways, @Colin_T I can't thank you enough for the vast amount of knowledge you shared with me, but I think it seems as though Roney wont pull through. He tries to eat, but seems like he can hardly see the food, and misses often, as well as struggling to get up to the surface, and despite eating, is INCREDIBLY thin! I hate to see him like this, but dont wanna euthanize if there is a chance he will make it. I dunno, take a look, anyone, and let me know what you think? I wonder, cuz his tail is transparent now, as is most of his abdomen, and he doesn't have a full body shape anymore either.

 

[Colin_T]

Sorry to hear he is not doing well

Have you checked the water quality in the tank today? It seems odd the other fish are looking a bit raggedy now.

A couple of options, you can euthanize him now, or put him in another tank and try a broad spectrum medication. He might have a bad case of gill flukes but the salt should have killed any on him. It doesn't look like he has any protozoan infections and again that would have been dealt with in the quarantine tank with the salt. He doesn't appear to have a bacterial or fungal infection on his body.

He is having trouble breathing and he is losing condition. A gill fungus or bacterial infection on the gills or gill flukes are all possibilities but bacteria shows up as red patches under the jaw and mouth as well as the gills and would have killed him by now. Gill fungal infections are uncommon, plus salt tends to deal with them.

You could try Praziquantel on the main tank with all the fish and see if that helps. It kills gill flukes and a number of other parasites and is relatively safe for fish. But if he doesn't improve in a day or two then I don't think he is going to make it.

It comes down to dollars and cents, do you want to spend potentially a lot of money and he may or may not make it. If he doesn't make it then you wasted money and made him suffer for a couple more days. Or you can put him down now.

The last option which most people don't like, is to send it to a fish vet and have them put him down and then do a post mortem on him and send samples off to be cultured in a lab. You should theoretically find out what the mark on the tail is and what is killing him. But it will cost you financially and you then try not to think about what was done to his body.

The scientific side of me says get him autopsied because I am curious, the optimist says Praziquantel and see how he does in 24 hours, but the heart says put him down now because he isn't feeding properly and has lost a lot of condition.

-------------------------
Vitamin deficiencies can occur in any animal, bird, reptile or fish. One of the ways we dealt with fish was to buy a fish vitamin supplement in liquid form and soak frozen but defrosted food in it. Then feed it to the fish. If you can't find one for fish you can use one for birds. We sometimes used Ornithon vitamin supplement for birds and sprinkled the powder over the frozen food. Leave it to soak for a minute then feed to the fish. We did this several times a week. I don't know if it made any difference to the fish's health but feeding a varied diet should help to reduce nutritional deficiencies.

Having said that, regardless of if he has a nutritional deficiency he has something majorly wrong, and I would probably just put him down. If you can get some clove oil from a supermarket or chemist, you can scoop him out in a bucket of tank water and add clove oil 1 drop at a time. Have the water aerating while you do this and add 1 drop, wait a 30 seconds to a minute then add another drop, etc. When he rolls over onto his side he is unconscious but not dead. You then remove the airstone and put his container in the freezer and leave it until the water is frozen solid. Then bury him in the backyard.

 

[seangee]

FWIW I think what you have been feeding is absolutely fine and the so called vitamin deficiency was a way to make an extra sale. (Omega One is generally a good brand though).

Bear in mind that Roney was one of your very first fish and lived through the initial cycling woes. This would have weakened him which means he is far more likely to succumb to something that the other fish may have managed to deal with, and potentially the cycling caused long term internal damage. His prognosis doesn't look good and I would agree with Colin about spending more money on treatment (yeah I know easier said than done when he is your son's fish ).

How are your shrimp doing? It's not unrelated - they are a good early indicator if there is a problem with water quality.

 

[Colin_T]

I just thought of one more option. In Australia we have Animal Health Labs. They are government run laboratories that specialise in animal health issues. They have different departments for birds, 4 legged animals, fish, etc. Most countries have Animal Health labs and if you could find one near you, they will probably kill and autopsy the fish for free. And when it comes to unusual health issues, they love them. Not in a sick twisted way or anything but unusual fish health problems can be new discoveries and potentially make them famous in scientific circles.

You have to get them to check everything tho. When I was losing fish I took a couple of rainbowfish in and they killed the fish with a chemical that makes the fish brain dead in seconds. Then the took one out and cut it up and put it on slides under a microscope. They said the fish had gill flukes and Oodinium. I went home and treated for flukes and Oodinium and the fish were still dying. Turned out the Oodinium was a new strain and was resistant to most medications so I used copper sulphate and killed them that way.

The fish still died after treating the gill flukes and Oodinium so I went back to fish health and they did more tests. They said the fish had worms so I treated them for worms and a few other things. The fish continued dying and eventually they said TB. I then had a couple of other vets kill and necropsy fish and they confirmed TB.

Anyway, if you contact your local department of agriculture and ask them if they have an animal health lab, you might be able to get the fish autopsied for free.

 

[Vengified]

Thank you both VERY MUCH, @seangee and @Colin_T for that WEALTH of information! It is more than I could ever thank you guys for!

An update for you all: the main tank is doing very well now, except for the nipping, which I am hopefully taking care of now, which I'll explain a bit further down. I used Melafix on the main tank, for the 3 fish that were not doing too bad, and they have fully recovered from odd behavior (except aggression, possibly because there is only 3), and all their tails look good (except where they have been nipping). I put Roney, and the pink one, my son named Knuckles for some reason, in the QT tank. I went very heavy on the salt, over time of course, not all at once, but ended up with 6 teaspoons in 2 gallons of water, and have held that for the last 6 days. As well as the salt, I did go ahead and use that Tetra Lifeguard, despite it's possible toxicity, and although the tails are not healed, both fish are much more active, as well as Roney getting his chest back, eating well, gaining weight and the like. His tail though, is still nearly see through, with splits and areas more reddish than others. If it is still better to put him down, I have clove oil and whole cloves, and would rather send him off in peace, rather than let him suffer forever in QT, or put him back in the main tank to degrade back into nothingness. The pink one though, I believe will make a full recovery, as his tail is healing as well. Oh, and I also took the temp up to 84° in the QT tank, which does have a filter with cycled filter, and airstone.

I'm not an expert, but I tend to think the cycling, and the stress of it, as well as the aggression that seems to get worse with each day, contributed to more than one fish seeming ill. I could definitely be wrong, but everyone except for Roney, seems to be doing well again. I am using 4 different types of food now, as well as fresh boiled spinach on occasion.

Before I forget, my RCS are doing wonderfully, as are my Otos, and the two ghost shrimp are fine as well. I find one molt from a shrimp, at least every 2 or 3 days, and now two more females are pregnant. My yellow one that is probably RCS or neocardinia or whatever technical term is, and one red one as well. So I know my parameters are good, as well as the fact that I have checked them every 2 days since it has been cycled, and checked literally every day during cycling, all 4 tests in API kit every day. Have it all on spreadsheets. So ya, my water is good.

Now to the part of HOPEFULLY curbing aggression: since the main tank seems to be fine, I told the wife to pick up some girl guppies, hoping that this would maybe distract the boys. Remember, there are only 3 boys in main tank right now, so I told her 4, even though it's not the 2:1 ratio, I didn't want to overload my beneficial bacteria, and plan to push for that ratio in the end, or close to it at least. She brought home the 4 fish, sold to her in the store, from the FEMALE guppy tank, and was assured they were female, as I told her that Sophie is gonna lose it if he has to run from more boys trying to establish dominance. She came home, with what appears to be 2 boys and 2 girls. I'm no pro at sexing guppies, not even close. But it seems like the two in question, are nearly identical to a boy I have already, they have long pointy anal fins, can't see gravid spot, and have fancy tail and dorsal fins. I'll attach pictures of the ones in question, and maybe someone can help me out? If they are boys, I am going to take them back, because 5 boys and 2 girls wouldn't turn out very well for anyone I dont think. Pictures aren't the greatest, but hopefully you can give me some insight, maybe I'm just paranoid?

 

[Colin_T]

The 2 fish you circled in red are both males

Put the females in another tank and keep separate sexes in each tank. If you add females to the male tank, the males will fight over the females. No females will reduce aggression but keep 8-10 males and any agro will be spread out over all of them.

If you want to keep males and females in the same tank, keep 1 male and 4 or more females, preferably more than 4 females per male. But male livebearers pester the hell out of females so I prefer to have a tank of males for colour, and females in another where they can produce young and not get hassled continuously by randy males.

 

[Vengified]

I know it's been AGES since I posted. I just wanted to say hello, and say thanks again to @Colin_T and @seangee for all the help! Everyone really!

A few days after my last post, I put Roney, and the one other fish to sleep. Their health continued to decline, after it appeared they were doing better, a cycle that went up and down several times before they looked real bad, and I felt bad for them. It wasnt til traumatizing for me, and my son didnt take it bad either, which is good.

Since then, I have added some more fish, I'm currently sitting at 5 males and 12 females in my tank. Everyone gets along wonderfully, except for Sophie, whom tries to mate with two of the boys in particular. The other boys dont harass the girls near as much as I would figure, and all but one of the females is pregnant, I believe one is sterile. She is very obviously a different shape then the others, with a very faint gravid spot, skinny and long shaped like a boy, but definitely no gonod.

Not sure why Sophie tries to do two of the boys, both of which are Multi-Color orange/blue/yellow/black delta tails. I know for sure he is indeed trying to mate with them, as he sticks his equipment out, holds it forward with a fin, and darts towards the males anal fin with it. Goofy goofy fish. Its almost like he is senile now or something? All the other boys understand the difference, and chase the girls on occasion, but not him. And no worries, there is a LOT of plants and hiding spaces now. My wife (who doesnt know or watch as much as me) thinks there isn't room to swim now lol. There is though, and they enjoy weaving through the plants, and as such, the females can disappear from the males, who enjoy spending a lot of their time, fighting the current from the spray bar, or the outlet of my new aquaclear 50.

Shrimp are breeding like bunnies, cant tell you how many I have now, they hide so well! I've lost a few shrimp, mid molt it appears, as they got the white stripe between head and abdomen. Actually caught one trying to get out, and he didnt make it. Others have made it successfully though. I havent gotten a test for gh/kh, but I did have tds tested, and it was at 300. I may have been feeding too much high protein food, and have since gotten crab cuisine food with calcium in it for them, as well as doing fresh spinach now and again.

Pretty much going great, and just wanted to thank everyone for their help once again! I'll have to post a pic of my tank when I get home. It's pretty epic now. I have done some nifty custom work with wood and lighting. I'll put it in a new thread eventually. But ya, thanks again!