Betta tail rot--proper treatment??

[Newbie283]

Hi there!

I'm new to this forum as well as being a new fishy caregiver!! I recently got a male veiltail about a month back named nugget. He is in a 5gallon planted tank with standard gravel, driftwood, 3 ghost shrimps, and some moss balls (will post pictures). About 2 weeks after I got him I broke down and got another male butterfly and put him in a similar 5gal planted setup the onlt difference being that his substrate is fine aquarium sand instead of gravel. Both have filters and heaters and get weekly 10% water changes with distilled water.

On to the issue--
Nugget is a very active happy-go-lucky fish. He's my favorite. He will jump and bite his pellets off my finger and rarely ever misses one, even if it sinks. Occasionally a lucky shrimp will get one he overlooked. He had badly torn fins from my first tank setup (plastic plants!!!! Learned my lesson) and his fins have healed beautifully. I've had his water tested one time with the unreliable dip sticks which his levels were fine. Mushu (the newer butterfly) is more shy and less active. His favorite past time is just laying in his aquarium plants. He is slow at eating and often misses 2 or 3 pellets a feeding (once a day 5-6 pellets sometimes I'll give them another 2-3 a second time). I let them sink and figured his 3 ghost shrimps would take care of them. I've noticed a more yellow color to his tank water although I thought it was just the sand making the water reflect weird. I've also noticed some brown algae on his plants and a milky clear fungus starting on his driftwood. Today I've noticed what looks like the beginning stage of fin rot. His tail looks slightly crumpled around the edges and I noticed a milky white fluff on some of the tips on his fins.

I do have a bottle of api bettafix I got for nuggets torn fins but never used (his fins were doing fine on their own). I was considering doing a 50%water change tonight and try to vaccum the sand best I can and treat the new water with some Betta fix. I will also lessen the amount of pellets I'm feeding. Tank temps are always between 78 and 80 degrees although I never properly tested either of the tank water.

Any advice or constructive crticism are welcome! I'm new to this but very fond of my fish and would like to keep them happy and healthy.

Nuggets tank

And mushu/his tank

Suspected fin rot, weird plant algae on java fern, and fungus on driftwood. (Ignore the black charcaol mess simply a disintegrated flourish tab for plants)

 

[Newbie283]

Not sure why photos didn't upload
Suspected fin rot-
https://ibb.co/mTM11b

Java fern algae-
https://ibb.co/bYvdgb

Driftwood fungus-
https://ibb.co/iysKnG

Nugget/his tank
https://ibb.co/neLpnG
https://ibb.co/eVYygb

Mushus tank (tank in question)
https://ibb.co/dw28gb

 

[NickAu]

Can you please answer the following questions.

How big is the tank?
Has it got a heater? What is it set to?
Has it got a filter?
How strong is the current?
Is it cycled?
How often do you change water?
How much water do you change?
Do you vacuum the substrate?
What additives or chemicals do you use? Eg De Chlorinator?
Do you use tap or bottled water? If bottled water please give us the brand.
Do you have a water test kit?
Can you tell us the readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?
When you clean the tank can you tell us exactly what you do.
What do you feed him? how much? how often?
Any tank mates? What sort how many?
How long have you had the Betta?

Betta fix.

This stuff is garbage and thats where it belongs.

 

[Newbie283]

Can you please read the entire thread?--

I've answered 95% of these questions in the thread post already. I'm assuming you didn't read it? Anyways, some things I did not include:

The current created by the filter I got was much too strong for a Betta. I read online that they are poor swimmers and even the lowest intake setting on the filter still was too strong for nugget so I bought a porous sponge filter replacement for a different type of filter and rigged a baffle so the water current isn't as strong. No the tank was not cycled before adding livestock. I did a fish in cycle with nuggets tank and I've had no problems. I just set up his tank the same way I did with my other Betta with the exception that I used sand as a substrate instead of gravel which I did give a light vaccum on the first and only water change I've done. I didn't notice any type of issues with mushus fins until 2 days after the first water change. It was a full week between setting the tank up and doing the first change. I first used distilled with water conditioner which I also used for the first tank with no issues. On today's water change (2 days after the first one. 50%with bettafix and spring water) but after reading posts about how they need minerals from tap the next water change I will do I will do 25%with conditioned tap. I use conditioner labeled for bettas. As for regular cleaning I do a 10% weekly with aquaroum siphon and lightly vaccum the substrate however I have 2 moderately planted tanks.

 

[FroFro]

Can you please read the entire thread?--

I've answered 95% of these questions in the thread post already. I'm assuming you didn't read it? Anyways, some things I did not include:

The current created by the filter I got was much too strong for a Betta. I read online that they are poor swimmers and even the lowest intake setting on the filter still was too strong for nugget so I bought a porous sponge filter replacement for a different type of filter and rigged a baffle so the water current isn't as strong. No the tank was not cycled before adding livestock. I did a fish in cycle with nuggets tank and I've had no problems. I just set up his tank the same way I did with my other Betta with the exception that I used sand as a substrate instead of gravel which I did give a light vaccum on the first and only water change I've done. I didn't notice any type of issues with mushus fins until 2 days after the first water change. It was a full week between setting the tank up and doing the first change. I first used distilled with water conditioner which I also used for the first tank with no issues. On today's water change (2 days after the first one. 50%with bettafix and spring water) but after reading posts about how they need minerals from tap the next water change I will do I will do 25%with conditioned tap. I use conditioner labeled for bettas. As for regular cleaning I do a 10% weekly with aquaroum siphon and lightly vaccum the substrate however I have 2 moderately planted tanks.

No offense sugar, but you listed the personality of each of your betta when you clearly wrote a header asking for help. I skimmed over the stories about Nugget and Mushu looking for key words like "fin rot" and the like. You said you noticed a tint to his water, algae, white fungus, and curled fins. These, and the questions Nick asked, are what we are interested in.

First thing is first is you need to perform a 50% water change on EACH tank right away. Don't use distilled and stop using "betta only" water conditioner. Go to walmart or a big petstore and buy tetra aquasafe. (not the easy balance, the bottles and labels are identical except for the words). This water conditioner is cheaper, just as effective, and will save you loads of money in the future.

Fin rot is often caused by poor water conditions which your description of his tank is likey the cause of. You need to be performing 50% water changes once a week or 30% o 40% water changes twice a week. Clean, cleam water is often the best treatment for fin rot in the mild stages.

Also, betta have stomachs about the size of their eye, so the excessive twice daily feeding isnt necessary. I feed my boy one flake a day, or two pellets, or 5 mysis/daphnia (as they are small) or one full sized bloodworm. His tummy has a noticeable bulge from just one flake, so your extra feedings and uneaten foods contribute to your poor water quality.

I advise purchasing an API freshwater master test kit. It costs 30 dollars and you get hundreds of tests out of it. It is also very accurate. This will allow you to monitior your water parameters closely and be able to act immediately should something go amiss. Like a spike in ammonia or nitrates.

Also, bettaflix, melafix, and pimafix are garbage. These medicines mess with the labyrinth organ in betta (the organ that allows them to breathe air from the water and surface) and the damage can often lead to death or impaired health for the betta that can be permanent. Medicines should never be used unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

[Newbie283]

I didnt mean to sound rude in my reply, but most of those questions he asked were already stated in the post. I tried to be as detailed as possible. Just looking for some seasoned advice as I said I'm brand new to this but am really fond of my fish. I'm not sure why Nugget and his shrimp are flourishing and Mushu is sick when both tanks were set up exactly the same, The only difference being the substrate. Everyone has their own way of doing things and when doing my research it seems a lot of people have different opinions on water changes during the cycling period. I wasn't sure if I should do a 50% on nuggets since he's doing so well I didn't want to disrupt his aquarium conditions if he is healthy. However the fin rot seems to explain why 95 percent of the time mushu is just laying in the bottom of his tank. Like I said his fins were fine and healthy until right after I did his first water change where I took out about a gallon and a half of his 5 gals. I will buy the master kit at pet smart and some more conditioner when I get paid tomorrow and like I said I will lessen the amount I'm feeding Mushu. What water do you recommend I use? Just conditioned tap?

 

[Newbie283]

Also to the next person to reply with advice-- I will continue weekly 50% changes on the healthy tank instead of a weekly 10 or 25. But how often and what percentage of changes should I do while I'm treating Mushu for his fin rot? I have a spare one gallon tank, should I do an in tank treatment or set up the one gallon for a quarantine? Any experience with using aquarium salt as treatment or triple-sulfa?? I don't want to use medication in his tank if I don't have to because of the live plants and the ghost shrimp.

 

[FroFro]

Also to the next person to reply with advice-- I will continue weekly 50% changes on the healthy tank instead of a weekly 10 or 25. But how often and what percentage of changes should I do while I'm treating Mushu for his fin rot? I have a spare one gallon tank, should I do an in tank treatment or set up the one gallon for a quarantine? Any experience with using aquarium salt as treatment or triple-sulfa?? I don't want to use medication in his tank if I don't have to because of the live plants and the ghost shrimp.

You can do 25% to 30% water changes twice a week in the healthy tank. The reason for this amount is because clean water is always great for a tank. By having diligent water changes you remove the chance of waste/decomposing food/organic matter to build up and cause a spike in your water parameters.

It is important that you do an IMMEDIATE 50% water change for your sick betta.

There is also a key difference in your tanks in how they were set up. The time. You said the first tank was set up a month ago and you did a fish in cycle, the second tank you set up two weeks after it and also did a fish in cycle, and you may still be in the second cycle. Cycling a tank with a fish in it is very hard on the animal and can often lead to stress or illness that develops later, even when the cycle is complete. Unless you have tannins in your water from leaching driftwood then you should not have a tint. Once you get your test kit back and give us specific numbers we can help you more.

I use tap water and water conditoner. If you are using betta water I suggest you do a sort of 2/3 betta water and 1/3 tap water (preconditioned) mix. Your source water is likely to be different than water from a bottle and the shock to your betta at the sudden change could worsen the situation. You need to slowly acclimate him. However, it might be wiser to push this to a later time after he has recovered. I have no experience with treating betta with salt, as I was able to cure my boy's mild fin rot with slighty warmer water and plenty of water changes. Hopefully Byron or Nick (the go to betta guy IMO) can hop on by and answer that directly.

 

[Newbie283]

I did to an emergency 50%change in the sick fish's tank last night, I wish I knew the water parameters before the change to compare but oh well, I'm definitely going to properly test both tanks tonight and do a water change accordingly.

I will have to let you guys know what the ammonia levels are so we can figure out how often his water needs changed to help treat his fins! Did you look at the picture of him? Is it time to medicate or should I continue with clean water first...it looks more like fin melt at this point. It happened quite abruptly as I inspect my fish closely every day.

The mystery to this is that my other Betta had badly torn fins because of my neglect to research plastic plants vs live plants. I quickly removed the fake plants after realizing it was the cause of his fin tears. His tank was set up exactly the same as soon as it was set up I put him in there to do an fish in cycle. His fins have healed wonderfully since with no medications. So I'm confused why one is sick at the others fins healed up!!!

 

[Newbie283]

Additionally I highly doubt my first bettas tank was fully cycled when I was treating him for his torn fins. His tank was maybe a week old when I replaced his fake plants with live ones and started to watch for his fins to heal. I noticed progress in his tears daily. I've done nothing different between the two tanks other than substrate and the sick Betta misses more pellets than the other.

 

[Newbie283]

Just did a water test, I also bought some liquid co2 for the live plants and some prime water conditioner.

Ammonia-0
Nitrates- 10ppm
Nirites- 1.0 ppm (yikes! Must be because it's not through a full cycle yet...might be the culprit for fin rot)
Ph-7.6 also too high.

I'm going to do a little under 50% water change a second day in a row but this time with tap water treated with primewater conditioner.

 

[Newbie283]

Also tested Nuggets tank (my healthy betta)
Ammonia-0
Nitrate- 0ppm
Nitrite- 0ppm
Ph-7.6

Tap water (which I will now use for future water changes)
Ammonia-0
Nitrate-0ppm
Nitrite-0ppm
Ph- 7.2-7.6

Guess that explains why Mushu is sick and Nugget is healthy!! Nitrites!! I'm going to hold off on changing nuggets water since his weekly 25% are doing him justice. Mushu is getting another 50% tonight. Any advice on lowering ph?? I will be back at pet smart tomorrow to get something for the ph and also to get a backup heater in case one of the heaters takes a cheap. Don't want to loose one of my babies to a broken water heater!

 

[Essjay]

Leave the pH alone.

Messing with the pH will cause more problems with the fish. Adding chemicals to alter pH usually results in a pH swinging from low to high then back to low again, which is not good for any fish.

Bettas are fine in pH up to 8, and soft to hard water. http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/betta-splendens/ Mine lives quite happily in pH 7.5.

 

[Newbie283]

Leave the pH alone.

Messing with the pH will cause more problems with the fish. Adding chemicals to alter pH usually results in a pH swinging from low to high then back to low again, which is not good for any fish.

Bettas are fine in pH up to 8, and soft to hard water. http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/betta-splendens/ Mine lives quite happily in pH 7.5.

So before his second 50% water change nitrites were at 1.0 ppm. I replaced about 2 full gallons of conditioned tap water. Following the directions on the bottle of prime I added an extra mL to help detoxify the nitrites. About an hour after this second water change (a 50%was also done the day before) his nitrite was at .25 ppm. Would it be possible I'm getting immediate nitrite levels directly after a water change because I keep disturbing the sand bed when I use my vaccum??? Is it okay to use a chemical to neutralize the nitrite in conjunction with daily water changes until the levels hit 0?? And do you think that's why Mushu is inactive and has fin melt?

 

[Essjay]

You are getting nitrite because the ammonia eating bacteria are making it from the ammonia that the fish excretes. It takes longer for the nitrite eating bacteria to grow, so until you have a full colony of nitrite eaters, nitrite will build up.
Water changes are the best way to keep nitrite low. Prime detoxifies nitrite for a few hours, no more than 36 hours, then the nitrite becomes "undetoxified". Using Prime will keep nitrite 'safe' until the next water change the following day.
Once you find that nitrite is staying at zero, you can go to weekly 50% water changes.

The dose rate for Prime is for the amount of new water not the tank volume, so if you changed 2 gallons, you need 0.2 ml Prime. Adding an extra 1ml is a lot. I know that the website says you can add a 5 x dose of Prime in an emergency, but your nitrite is not high enough for a dose that big. If you must add extra, I would use no more than 0.2 ml for each gallon of new water - ie double the stated dose.



Stress is the cause of finrot, and having nitrite in the water stresses a fish.