Aragonite, Coral Sand, Raised pH, KH, GH

[Byron]

Just on the guppy question, yes, they are more adaptable, within limits of course. But a GH around 8-9 is possible for them though not the other livebearers. Personally, I would not include guppies with the softer water fish; if you do go this route, staying more with your water, soft water species will thrive but guppies will be working harder. If you raise the GH to 9 or thereabouts, some soft water species will not appreciate it. Hard water and soft water fish really do not combine well, as there is no "middle ground" for any but a few species to be healthy.

 

[Yarkii]

Quick update: for three days following the water change, the parameters stayed settled at

pH 7.8
KH 89.5ppm/5dH
GH 107.4ppm/6dH

GH not high enough for livebearers. Dosed Replenish to raise GH (aiming for 12dH this dose, but not sure if I put slightly too much in - not accounting for reduced water volume bc of sand, plants, driftwood & slate).

Parameters 23 hours later :
pH 7.8
KH 107ppm/6dH (up by 1dH)
GH 214ppm/12dH (up by 6dH)

Noticed plants struggling. Were struggling a little after water change, but really struggling now.

Part-dosed Flourish. Had previously dosed at same time as Prime. Have been made aware Prime can make Flourish less effective.


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[Yarkii]

Sorry I haven't responded specifically yet, Byron & Steven. I'm a teensy bit overwhelmed at present. I'll get there!

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[Byron]

Noticed plants struggling. Were struggling a little after water change, but really struggling now.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

[Yarkii]

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Hi Byron!

I noticed some of the plants struggling a little since the 70% water change (e.g. hairgrass turning yellow, after previously being a lovely healthy green). Yesterday I noticed lots of off-white growth on anubia leaves (especially on one of the plants - similar to what was happening during cycling, before I shortened the lights-on time). Also some anubia leaves seeming to 'dry out' a little - developing brown patches on the edges. Many leaves on the blue stricta are weakening/melting, and some elodea ends are looking more yellow than usual.

From my non-educated-with-plants perspective, I'm aware of three changes preceding the plant deterioration (it's minor deterioration, I guess, but absolutely noticeable):

*I added quite a few new plants to the tank a couple of days prior to the water change. Once they were in, I wondered if I'd gone too far / added too many

*I added the Flourish dose at the same time as Prime, during the water change. As you pointed out, some ingredients in Prime will make some ingredients in Flourish inactive, so the plants were likely suddenly without enough fertiliser

*I raised the GH from 6dH to 12dH. The LFS guy who I bought Replenish from said the high pH & GH will kill my plants, so I've been worried that it might be that too. Or maybe it was too big a leap in GH all at once, and it'll settle again

-Jacqui

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[Byron]

Thanks. A water change is not going to cause what you describe as quickly as it seems to have occurred. The only exception would be some toxic substance in the water that attacked the plants somehow. For example, a high level of bleach in the water would cause fairly rapid signs. I'm not suggesting bleach, that is just an obvious example; but it would have to be something as major to do this in so short a time period. I once had all the crypts in two tanks turn to mush in just two days, solely from a rise in pH from 5-6 to 7 in the tap water that I was not aware of until I checked into the sudden crypt demise. But crypts are especially susceptible to any change, much more than most other aquarium plants. So we need to look further afield.

Adding new plants would not do this either, though there is the issue of allelopathy. This is a botanical condition where one species produces biochemicals that intentionally harm another species, a sort of "tough guy dominates." I don't know much about this, which is to say nothing frankly, but I have seen it referenced. To my knowledge, our general aquarium plants do not get into this "bullying," so I would move on...but it should be mentioned.

As for too many new plants, I suppose this might deplete nutrients to the degree that some of the plants have difficulty. Would probably have to be a lot of new plants though, as most can manage though they might not look as thriving, but again it would not be rapid. I have completely discontinued fertilizers and it usually takes a few weeks before I really see anything in the plants' response. Same for the reverse, adding more when there is a deficiency.

The Prime and Flourish Comprehensive being added together is not good, but again not likely to cause what you saw. It is better though not to add more than one additive at a time, for water chemistry reasons and fish issues more than plants.

The sudden increase in hard minerals (rising GH) might, this is comparable to increasing certain nutrients which can cause deficiencies of other nutrients, but I am not aware of calcium and magnesium doing this to such an extent. When I used Equilibrium I had a difference of 3 or 4 dGH at each water change. I never saw plants respond to this, though I was keeping a closer eye on the fish.

Changers either way in plants usually take a couple weeks or so, as I say. I'm not sure I would agree that a higher GH and pH would kill the plants, unless it were very significant. I mentioned the pH issue with my crypts, but I've never seen this with other plant species that I can recall. I hampered my floating plants in one tank by adding too much iron over a few weeks.

 

[StevenF]

*I raised the GH from 6dH to 12dH. The LFS guy who I bought Replenish from said the high pH & GH will kill my plants, so I've been worried that it might be that too. Or maybe it was too big a leap in GH all at once, and it'll settle again

I have seen my tank go to a PHof 9 and didn't see any damaged plants. I also doubt a sudden change in GH could cuase this but it is not impossible. THe plant problems you see could be related to deficiency. With Replenish and flourish added the only possible deficiencies I can see are Nitrogen, PHosphorous and sulfur. Phosphorous deficiency doesn't produce the symptoms you describe (my tanks is currently phosphorous deficient) and I believe we can stay the same for sulfur. A nitrogen deficiency will produce symptoms like you are seeing. However it does seem like it is developing too fast. What are your nitrogen levels currently? I would expect zero.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

If this tank is still being cycled with ammonia, nitrogen is likely present... although, if its heavily planted the ammonia might have been used by the plants already. I haven't read an update on the ammonia in a while.



One thing I'd clarify, I read someone posted that 'acidic water' is harmful to fish. That's not accurate across all fish, but is specific to livebearers. South American fish can tolerate and even thrive in extremely acidic waters. Some fish (Altum angelfish, as an example), require a pH well below 6.0 (far below the reach of most hobby test kits and require specific work to keep the water that acidic).



Plants, as with fish, need time to settle in to new water parameters. That's one of the reasons that cryptocoryne varieties 'melt' so frequently when added to a new tank. If there is ammonia present in the tank, then nitrogen deficiency is not the likely root cause (assuming the ammonia isn't above about 2ppm). Ammonia can cause some plants to have trouble though in too high a concentration. But, in general, plants will actually use ammonia more than nitrate when sufficient (but not excessive) ammonia is present.

 

[Yarkii]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to try to catch up, starting with the more recent posts:

Thanks. A water change is not going to cause what you describe as quickly as it seems to have occurred. The only exception would be some toxic substance in the water that attacked the plants somehow. For example, a high level of bleach in the water would cause fairly rapid signs. I'm not suggesting bleach, that is just an obvious example; but it would have to be something as major to do this in so short a time period.

I'm not sure whether anything could have made its way in there. As far as chemicals go, we don't have many at all in our house. Buying ammonia (for the cycle) and then bleach (to clean out the other old tank - which I haven't done yet) was a big deal for us, as we tend to use natural cleaners etc. The tank has two lids; two panes of glass above the water (there's about a 1cm gap between them, plus a triangular gap above the water heater etc), then a plastic lid with two flaps that covers all but two small triangles at the back corners to let the cords for the lights and the heater out. The openings in the black plastic cover are NOT above the openings in the glass covers.

As for too many new plants, I suppose this might deplete nutrients to the degree that some of the plants have difficulty. Would probably have to be a lot of new plants though, as most can manage though they might not look as thriving, but again it would not be rapid. I have completely discontinued fertilizers and it usually takes a few weeks before I really see anything in the plants' response. Same for the reverse, adding more when there is a deficiency.

I find it hard to measure/estimate plant volume, but I think I may very well have doubled the number of plants in there, or come quite close to doubling the plant volume in one hit. I didn't quite realize how much I'd bought, as it was from two different places, until I started to put them in the tank. If I essentially doubled the volume of plants, and then with the water change (using Flourish & Prime together incorrectly) diminished the nutrients in the water, I thought perhaps I'd starved the plants of nutrients.

The sudden increase in hard minerals (rising GH) might, this is comparable to increasing certain nutrients which can cause deficiencies of other nutrients, but I am not aware of calcium and magnesium doing this to such an extent. When I used Equilibrium I had a difference of 3 or 4 dGH at each water change. I never saw plants respond to this, though I was keeping a closer eye on the fish.

I do wonder if perhaps there were changes happening before hand, but I just hadn't noticed them. It seemed sudden to me. Whilst all this is happening, there is still growth occurring. Three out of the four banana lilies (I couldn't resist and bought two more - I just love them) are now sending multiple shoots with lilies up to the surface. The fourth one is a little slow, but I wonder if he's too deeply into the substrate.

 

[Yarkii]

The aragonite and coral you put in your tank is about 90% calcium carbonate. The remaining 10% are trace minerals and magnesium. Calcium and magnesium are the primary elements that will register in a GH test. Calcium and carbonate are listed as having a water solubility of 0.013 grams per liter. Magnesium carbonate is a little higher. However both of them together are probably not going to push your water hardness much over 100ppm.

Since Ill now be adding Replenish to bring the GH higher, at each water change, do I add the amount for the volume of new water to get to the target GH, or lower because the aragonite and coral sand will push it the rest of the way? Or, will the aragonite & coral sand only push the GH to around 100 regardless of the GH of the water going in, and not at all if the GH is already higher?

Also, I understand that we shouldn't be dosing multiple things at the same time, but both Prime and replenish seem important to add at the time of a water change, to remove chlorines etc. and to maintain the GH (since my tap water is extremely low GH and the tank now isn't).

PH looks OK although in conversations with other people I have had, some people have reported that the API pH test tends to run a little high compared to other test.

One of those conversations was with me, I think. I was struggling with the different results from three different tests. I still intend to go to Hanan Industries to purchase a pH tester/checker/thingy. In the meantime, I have been extremely pedantic about conducting the tests in the same lighting conditions. I've also paid more attention to the time of day when I test. If it's during lights-on or daytime, it's higher. After lights-out in the evening it is always 7.8 now.

I would suggest you put a open jug of tap water out (where the cat can't get to it). Monitor the PH. For the first one do it immediately after filling the jug and then once every couple of days for about a week if the ph is stable you don't have to worry about acidic tap water. However if your PH goes up it might be a good idea to let your water outgas for several days before using it in your aquarium.

Thank you. I've found a good hiding spot and am a few days into testing the tap water this way.

Ouch! I would suggest doing a lot of very big water changes for at lest 1 week before getting fish. That should remove most if not all the soap. staring up the substrate a little bit before the water change may also help.

Thank you. I will do this.

If you are using flourish comprehensive it contains just enough CA, MG,S, and CL to cover the needs of your plants. Whichever GH booster you get will just add to that which is not dangerous.

I think it is just plain old Flourish (not Flourish Comprehensive). I'll check when I get back home.

I have seen my tank go to a PHof 9 and didn't see any damaged plants. I also doubt a sudden change in GH could cuase this but it is not impossible. THe plant problems you see could be related to deficiency. With Replenish and flourish added the only possible deficiencies I can see are Nitrogen, PHosphorous and sulfur. Phosphorous deficiency doesn't produce the symptoms you describe (my tanks is currently phosphorous deficient) and I believe we can stay the same for sulfur. A nitrogen deficiency will produce symptoms like you are seeing. However it does seem like it is developing too fast. What are your nitrogen levels currently? I would expect zero.

My readings last night were:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-20 (I need to do more water changes from the cycling - I've still only managed to do that one big water change)
pH 7.8
KH 6dH / 107ppm
GH 12 dH / 214ppm

Are those tests okay for nitrogen? Is it worth getting a test for phosphorous and sulphur?

To be entirely honest, I am a little disappointed that the pH has risen this high, for a couple of reasons. All the fish I want to get would be okay with a slightly lower pH, such as 7.4 or 7.5. As far as I am aware, the fish stores around me keep their tanks around 7.0. They all get their fish from the same supplier. I don't know what will be involved in introducing my fish from their 7.0 tanks to my 7.8 water, but this will be the case every time.

A very small part of me still wonders about removing some of the aragonite substrate and replacing it with something like ECO Complete (and having both substrates). I don't know everything it has, but sulphur is definitely one thing. I realize that I am having trouble reconciling the conflicting information I receive from different sources, and sometimes flip back and forth for a few days over questions like this. I suppose that if I worked out that it was deficient in certain things like sulphur, and if there weren't other ways to deal with that, then I might think about adding a little eco complete.... I'm fairly certain that I'll at least use it in the QT when I get it up and running, as a bit more of an experiment for myself.

 

[Yarkii]

If this tank is still being cycled with ammonia, nitrogen is likely present... although, if its heavily planted the ammonia might have been used by the plants already. I haven't read an update on the ammonia in a while.

Hi EaglesAquarium!

The water readings last night were:

My readings last night were:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-20 (I need to do more water changes from the cycling - I've still only managed to do that one big water change)
pH 7.8
KH 6dH / 107ppm
GH 12 dH / 214ppm

I haven't added ammonia for some time now. I don't have any fish yet (until I sort out the water parameters and also get rid of as much soap as possible from the cloudy ammonia I used in cycling). There are now quite a few tiny little snails in there that came in with plants &/or driftwood. I can see two types of snails, and I guess that that's a whole other topic that I'll have to learn about soon....

Plants, as with fish, need time to settle in to new water parameters. That's one of the reasons that cryptocoryne varieties 'melt' so frequently when added to a new tank. If there is ammonia present in the tank, then nitrogen deficiency is not the likely root cause (assuming the ammonia isn't above about 2ppm). Ammonia can cause some plants to have trouble though in too high a concentration. But, in general, plants will actually use ammonia more than nitrate when sufficient (but not excessive) ammonia is present.

I've actually wondered whether they somehow need some ammonia. since I haven't added any since I (a) was happy with the cycle's progress and (b) learnt that the ammonia source I used had soap in it!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Your nitrate testing at 10-20 ppm means that there is nitrogen available for the plants, so what you are seeing is not nitrogen deficiency.

 

[Yarkii]

Once we know the GH/KH/pH that will be stable, we can easily find fish. There are catfish that will be OK with moderately hard water and a basic pH, but not extremes. You intend mollies which must have harder water (12 dGH absolute minimum, above this is better for the fish) and we need to know just where this GH will end up. So I won't start suggesting catfish yet.

I do not know the site referenced, AquariumIndustries.com.au, but will take a look later. For the record, the water parameters given for species on Seriously Fish is very reliable.

I have to admit that currently one of my biggest difficulties is reconciling the contradictory information from different websites regarding the needs of different fish species. I can see that the Seriously Fish site offers, for example, a source for the Guppy information, but it's a German periodical article from 1859. I can't access the source, so I can't be critical of it. How do they know this is a good range for Guppies? How much have guppies' needs changed since then, since the fish I can buy from my LFS are probably quite different to the fish that Peters observed in the wild or wherever he observed them in 1859? Of course most sites seem worse; they either don't offer any information about where they get their data, or else they don't even mention water hardness requirements for different fish. I don't know how the SF info relates to the very contradictory information from the Aquarium Industries site I mentioned, which is the site run by the company that supplies all the potential places where I will get my fish. I'll try contacting them, but for someone who really wants to try to avoid making mistakes, and who is coming from an entirely naïve perspective in the fish-keeping world, it's all quite confusing and frustrating. One site will say that I can have some livebearers with some catfish (certainly not most), whilst another will say I can't.

The Aquarium Industries site lists guppies as requiring higher minimum water hardness than other livebearers (according to the caresheets at https://www.aquariumindustries.com.au/fish-care/livebearers/), whilst SF lists the guppy as requiring a MUCH lower minimum water hardness than the other livebearers. According to one site, I could now get Mollies, Platys and Swordtails, but not Guppies as they need harder water. According to the other site, guppies are the only livebearers that I currently could get with my 12dH GH, and the others all require harder water.

I feel compelled to simply try to raise the GH to the highest minimum from both sites for all livebearers, but it is frustrating not really knowing for sure, particularly when some of the information says that there IS a goldilocks range where I could perhaps have SOME livebearers with SOME other fish. Ho hum. Maybe I need to set up another tank with other fish species one day......

 

[Yarkii]

Your nitrate testing at 10-20 ppm means that there is nitrogen available for the plants, so what you are seeing is not nitrogen deficiency.

Thank you. perhaps I might need to buy some tests to test for the other potential deficiencies. I'll also observe it over the next few days, now that I've realized the mistake of adding Flourish at the same time as Prime. I won't make that mistake again.

 

[Byron]

A very small part of me still wonders about removing some of the aragonite substrate and replacing it with something like ECO Complete (and having both substrates). I don't know everything it has, but sulphur is definitely one thing. I realize that I am having trouble reconciling the conflicting information I receive from different sources, and sometimes flip back and forth for a few days over questions like this. I suppose that if I worked out that it was deficient in certain things like sulphur, and if there weren't other ways to deal with that, then I might think about adding a little eco complete.... I'm fairly certain that I'll at least use it in the QT when I get it up and running, as a bit more of an experiment for myself.

I do not recommend this. First, Eco-Complete is not really worth the high cost. I used Flourite, a very similar product, and saw no improvement. The other thing is that substrate fish can have issues with either of these, they are rough/sharp. Believe me, you are not going to benefit from these so-called plant substrates. Waste of money, and risky to boot.