Aragonite, Coral Sand, Raised pH, KH, GH

[Yarkii]

Hi everyone!

I've just cycled my new 220L tank. My water is extremely soft, but I hope to keep livebearers, so I've used aragonite sand (10kg) and coral sand (20kg) as substrate, to raise the pH, KH & GH without adding chemicals. I've got lots of plants (elodea, blue stricta, filigree milfoil, hairgrass, anubias, banana lillies, something the LFS called bamboo which isn't really bamboo, some kind of long grass, and monte carlo - I might take the monte carlo out). There are four pieces of driftwood in the tank and one in the sump. There are two pieces of slate.

I used Prime & Flourish when putting water in the tank. I used cloudy ammonia when cycling. I added some ViviD bacterial powder with the first ammonia dose.

My lighting is 28W LED (2 x white & 1 x RGB + blue). I've dropped the lights-on time to 7 hours per day. The filter pump appears to be pumping the water through the system somewhere between 16 & 19 times per hour.

There's lots of plant growth that I can see. I accidentally have some snails in there, that have hitch-hiked in with plants and driftwood.

The cycle took about 17 days. I'm happy with how the nitrogen cycle went, but I'm very concerned about what's happening with the pH, KH & GH. The pH went too high (around 7.8 to 8.2 - but I had a lot of trouble with measurement). The KH rose from 89ppm/5dH on Day 3 to 125ppm/7dH on Day 19. The GH rose from 125ppm/7dH on Day 3 to 161ppm/9dH on Day 19. The temperature was 24-25C.

As well as the pH being too high, I'm concerned that the KH & GH, as well as not being high enough, rose too slowly. This makes me concerned that with water changes, the pH, KH & GH will all drop and take too long to rise. So I'm going to have to observe the changes in water parameters with water changes, before even thinking of getting fish, but I need help interpreting the parameters and making decisions about what to do.

So, on the 19th day after starting to cycle my tank, I did the first water change: a roughly 70% water change. I'm not sure exactly how much water there is in the tank, as I'm not sure of the volume of the driftwood, slate & plants.

Parameters prior to the water change:

pH 7.8-8.0
KH 125ppm/7dH
GH 161ppm/9dH

~70% water change with warm water, Prime & Flourish

Parameters 2 hours after 70% water change:

pH 7.8
KH 71.6ppm/4dH
GH 89.5ppm/5dH

Parameters 26 hours after 70% water change:

pH 7.8
KH 89.5ppm/5dH
GH 107.4ppm/6dH

---//--
EDIT:
Parameters 45 hours after 70% water change:
pH 7.8
KH 89.5ppm/5dH
GH 107.4ppm/6dH
(Unchanged since yesterday.)

Parameters 3 days & 3 hours (75 hours) after 70% water change:
pH 7.8
KH 89.5ppm/5dH
GH 107.4ppm/6dH
(i.e. no change since y/day)

Added 55mL Seachem Replenish, aiming to raise GH to ~12dH (wasn't sure about taking too big a jump in one go). After Replenish dose, realised I'd calculated it for full 220L tank capacity, when I think there's actually only about 180L or so water in there. So GH might be expected to rise to 13dH instead. Late at night. Will measure tomorrow.

Parameters 4 days & 3 hours (99 hours) after 70% water change. 23 hours after Replenish dose.
pH 7.8
KH 107.4ppm/6dH
GH 214ppm/12dH

Noticed plants have been struggling a little since water change (e.g. hairgrass turning yellow). Today noticed off-white flaky growth on anubia leaves, similar to what was happening during cycling, before I shortened the lights-on time.

Concerned higher GH might be causing plants to struggle, but also now aware that adding Prime & Flourish together during water change meant Flourish was less effective.

Dosed 3.5mL Flourish 10pm tonight.

Parameters 23 hours after Replenish dose & 14 hours after Flourish dose (5 days after 70% water change)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-20
pH 7.8
KH 6dH
GH 12dH

---//---

I'll keep monitoring it for a few days, but I have a few questions already.

(Q1) The pH rose to 7.8 within two hours, which was quicker than I expected, but the initial water I'm putting in won't have had a pH that high. Is the time it takes for the pH to rise going to be an issue for fish?

(Q2) If the pH fluctuates between 7.8 and 8.0 (I doubt my 8.2 reading), is that stable enough?

(Q3) If the KH & GH rise slowly between water changes, is this going to be an issue for fish? If it is, would smaller water changes assist in reducing the KH / GH drop? Would this be enough to make the environment safe / stable enough for fish?

(Q4) Are there actually any fish that can handle pH that high without very high GH? I'd love suggestions!

(Q5) In Melbourne, every LFS seems to sell these blue crystals that they say to use as well as dechlorinators to condition the water. In my observation, these crystals raise the GH specifically. Should I consider using these crystals with water changes?

(Q6) Would removing a large amount of the aragonite & coral sand substrate & replacing it with something else reduce its pH-raising effects?

(Q7) If I did reduce the amount of aragonite & coral sand, and replaced it with something else, does it matey if the aragonite/coral sand sits below the other substrate? Will it still be effective from underneath another substrate?

I'm sure I have more questions that I just can't remember right now! I'll keep monitoring the pH, KH & GH daily & edit the original post.

 

[Baker]

I'll try to tag @Byron intinthis, he is very knowledgeable about water parameters and interpreting the data. He would be best at assisting you with this

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the kind words, but I will readily admit that Steven is more knowledgeable when it comes to water chemistry. However, I do see a few things here, and as I have gone through this identical issue myself, may be able to offer some advice which Steven can confirm/elaborate on.

First, the pH. That is not a problem. A pH change of a couple decimal points (say 7.8 to 8.0) is not an issue at all. And livebearers (which are all you intend, no soft water species) are fine with a pH close to 8, mollies a bit higher. If it gets in the high 8's to 9+, I would rethink things.

The GH/KH rise is due to the substrate, and I would want it higher, so removing any of the existing calcareous substrate is not going to help this.

Something you might consider is a GH/KH product to use with the water changes. I used Seachem's Equilibrium for my plants for two years in three tanks, to raise the GH from zero to 5 or 6 dGH. This had no effect on KH or pH, which was what I wanted at the time. It was only to provide more calcium and magnesium (iron, potassium and sulphur I believe are also included). I ended this practice over a year ago due to a problem in one tank and additives of any sort were discontinued as part of finding out the issue, and it so happens that the plants have been fine since then without the Equilibrium, but with Flourish Tabs. I just mention this for info, I am not suggesting Equilibrium is what you want, it is not.

But there are other products intended to raise GH/KH primarily for fish, and Seachem makes one called Replenish. I corresponded with Seachem about Replenish and Equilibrium when I was considering the GH issue, and they advised to use Equilibrium only for plant situations, and Replenish would be more beneficial to fish but not plants. So something like Replenish may be your best bet. Steven may have more on this.

The "blue crystals" may or may not be good, you need to know what they are, what they contain, and what they do.

Byron.

 

[StevenF]

I used cloudy ammonia when cycling.

Ammonia should look like pure water. Many companies sell ammonia with soap and coloring added. Soap is leathal to fish. Take you bottle of ammonia and shake it virgorously. If it foams it has soap in it.

Another thing to note is ammonia can increase PH. So I wouldn't worry about that yet if you still have ammonia in the tank.

Can you please post your PH, GH, and KH for your untreated tap water. After I get off of work I can advise you more.

 

[StevenF]

The aragonite and coral you put in your tank is about 90% calcium carbonate. The remaining 10% are trace minerals and magnesium. Calcium and magnesium are the primary elements that will register in a GH test. Calcium and carbonate are listed as having a water solubility of 0.013 grams per liter. Magnesium carbonate is a little higher. However both of them together are probably not going to push your water hardness much over 100ppm.

As well as the pH being too high, I'm concerned that the KH & GH, as well as not being high enough, rose too slowly.

So inorder to get a higher water harness readingg you need something with a much higher solubility than carbonates. Carbonates are often recommended as a way to get hard water in an aquarium. After all some people with hard water get a GH reading of 200 to 300ppm from their tap and have a lot scale (carbonate) buildup on sinks and showers.

The reason some water has so much carbonate in it is that the water solubility of carbonates is dependent on the waters PH. if Your PH is 7 or higher carbonates basically don't dissolve. IF they don't dissolve they will have no effect on PH, GH, or KH. However if your water PH is less than 6.5 solubility increases dramatically. Surface water often has a neutral (PH7) or slightly high ph and as a result the water is often not hard. However well water often has large amounts of CO2 dissolved in it. As a result it often has a ph of 6 or less. As a result of that a lot of calcium and magnesium carbonate in the soil and rock are dissolved and you get hard water.

The primary reason I am asking about your tap water PH, GH, and KH is that often very soft water is acidic. Acidic water is harmful to fish and in my experience more dangerous than a high PH. You need to know what your tape water parameters are so that you can take precautions to avoid harming your fish.

(Q6) Would removing a large amount of the aragonite & coral sand substrate & replacing it with something else reduce its pH-raising effects?

(Q7) If I did reduce the amount of aragonite & coral sand, and replaced it with something else, does it matey if the aragonite/coral sand sits below the other substrate? Will it still be effective from underneath another substrate?

At this point I am not going to recommend removing the crushed coral and aragonite. It serves a very useful purpose in that it will quickly react with acid and neutralize them. This helps protect the animals and plants in your tank from acids (however they get into your aquarium). And over the long term your aquarium will generally have a very stable PH. Although that said you don't need as much as you have in your aquarium. So if you want to remove some that is OK. If the carbonates are under a layer of inert gravel it may slow the reaction with acid but otherwise would not have much effect on the carbonates

 

[Yarkii]

Thank you Steven.

Ammonia should look like pure water. Many companies sell ammonia with soap and coloring added. Soap is leathal to fish. Take you bottle of ammonia and shake it virgorously. If it foams it has soap in it.

Yes - I just shook it, and it was all bubbly/frothy up top.

Another thing to note is ammonia can increase PH. So I wouldn't worry about that yet if you still have ammonia in the tank.

The last ammonia dose (#3) was six days ago. The ammonia reading two days after the dose (and again four days after) was zero.

Can you please post your PH, GH, and KH for your untreated tap water. After I get off of work I can advise you more.

Okay. I let some tap water sit in a covered jug (so the cat didn't contaminate it!) for 50 minutes, then took these measurements:

pH 6.8 - 7.0 (see photo)
KH 2dH / 35.8ppm (*)
GH maybe 3dH / 53.7, but definitely no more than 4dH / 71.6 (**)

* KH Test: Even with one drop, the water was barely blue, but I'm confident it was yellow by two drops - though it was all very faint.

** GH Test: This was really hard to read. I never realised how similar orange and green are! I've posted the photos below, with marks for each drop of testing solution (I, II etc drops). I couldn't decide at which point the water changed from orange to green. Definitely by 4 drops, pretty sure by 3, but maybe, maybe 2?

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[Yarkii]

First, the pH. That is not a problem. A pH change of a couple decimal points (say 7.8 to 8.0) is not an issue at all. And livebearers (which are all you intend, no soft water species) are fine with a pH close to 8, mollies a bit higher. If it gets in the high 8's to 9+, I would rethink things.

Thanks Byron. I'm trying to find something very different as well to have in the tank with the livebearers, just for a little difference. I've mostly been looking at a site AquariumIndustries.com.au, which has recommended parameters for different fish types. However, I'm aware of some contradictions between the recommended parameter ranges and the comments regarding fish compatability. I'm also mindful that this is a company's website; the company that I've just realised supplies pretty much every LFS and many pet stores for suburbs all around this part of Melbourne.

I'm really hoping that I can find a suitable (and small) catfish, but otherwise some creature that is different to the livebearers I'll get, just for interest & variety.

it so happens that the plants have been fine since then without the Equilibrium, but with Flourish Tabs.

Do you think the Flourish tabs are better than using Flourish liquid at water changes? Is it a matter of using one OR the other; not both?

Something you might consider is a GH/KH product to use with the water changes.

there are other products intended to raise GH/KH primarily for fish, and Seachem makes one called Replenish. I corresponded with Seachem about Replenish and Equilibrium when I was considering the GH issue, and they advised to use Equilibrium only for plant situations, and Replenish would be more beneficial to fish but not plants. So something like Replenish may be your best bet. Steven may have more on this.

The "blue crystals" may or may not be good, you need to know what they are, what they contain, and what they do.

I still haven't managed to work out what is actually IN the blue crystals. But Replenish sounds like it does exactly the same thing the blue crystals are meant to do. I trust your fish knowledge & research & integrity Byron. I'll try to find Seachem Replenish and give it a go.

Thank you so much!

Jacqui



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[StevenF]

But there are other products intended to raise GH/KH primarily for fish, and Seachem makes one called Replenish. I corresponded with Seachem about Replenish and Equilibrium when I was considering the GH issue, and they advised to use Equilibrium only for plant situations, and Replenish would be more beneficial to fish but not plants. So something like Replenish may be your best bet.

There are basically two types of GH boosters sold Chloride and sulfide based:

• Chloride GH booster are made primarily from calcium chloride and magnesium chloride. Chlorides are found in the ocean and inland seas like The Great Salt Lake in North America. In costal marshes and deltas the water may one day be salt water and then another would be fresh or brackish. If you are trying to duplicate a delta, marsh or inland lake environment chloride based GH booster is a good choice. Many African Cichlids come from inland seas in the Africa rift valley. Sachem does sell a product called Cichlid lake salt with is basically a Chloride based GH booster that has been carefully formulated to match the water of this environment.
• Sulfate Gh booster are made from Calcium sulfate (Gypsum) and magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt). These are often found in freshwater lakes and streams. Plants need calcium, magnesium and sulfur to grow. Sulfate booster supplies all of these making it a good choice for a fresh water planted tank

Chlorides and sulfides are very soluble in water meaning you can easily adjust the hardness of tap water to whatever harness you want, even if it it 500ppm (although I don't know of any animal that lives in water that hard). Plants need 15 nutrients to grow including calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and chlorine. Many fertilizers on the market don't include these nutrients .so often gh boosters are used with regular fertilizers. Especially when using very soft water. They do not affect PH. However sulfides and chlorides do not neutralize acids like carbonates do.

These products rapidly change the GH so you could set aside water and adjust the GH to match your tank water. Once you have a match you can do your water change with little to no change in GH. A TDS meter is very helpful when doing this It is an electric meter that will measure Total Dissolved Solids in the water. It only takes 1 or 2 minutes to get a stable reading without mixing any chemicals or comparing color with color reference cards.

Note these products generally don't contain carbonates. Carbonates are very useful in minimizing acidic ph changes in the aquarium. However as plants consume sulfate or chlorine some calcium and magnesium may be left behind in the water. They will then react with CO2 in the water forming New carbonate. I Typically measure KH of about 40ppm My aquarium typically stays very close to a ph of 7. Shrimp and snails are very sensitive to GH in the water If your water is too soft shrimp won't molt and die and snail shells will dissolve. At a minimum you should keep your GH and KH at or above 40ppm (about 2 degrees)

 

[Yarkii]

Today's water parameters, 45 hours after 70% water change:

pH 7.8
KH 89.5ppm/5dH
GH 107.4ppm/6dH

(Unchanged since yesterday.)

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[StevenF]

Okay. I let some tap water sit in a covered jug (so the cat didn't contaminate it!) for 50 minutes, then took these measurements:

pH 6.8 - 7.0 (see photo)
KH 2dH / 35.8ppm (*)
GH maybe 3dH / 53.7, but definitely no more than 4dH / 71.6 (**)

Your water does looks OK. It is closer to soft instead of very soft. PH looks OK although in conversations with other people I have had, some people have reported that the API pH test tends to run a little high compared to other test. If that is true your PH may be closer to 6 than 7. In either case your are probably OK.

I would suggest you put a open jug of tap water out (where the cat can't get to it). Monitor the PH. For the first one do it immediately after filling the jug and then once every couple of days for about a week if the ph is stable you don't have to worry about acidic tap water. However if your PH goes up it might be a good idea to let your water outgas for several days before using it in your aquarium.

I cannot help you much on the API tests you use. I don't have them and I tend to rely on the digital readout of my TDS meter and my Hanna color I meter for KH. Try reading them under indirect outdoor light it will probably give you the best reading. Indoor artificial light can shift the colors a little bit.

↑

Ammonia should look like pure water. Many companies sell ammonia with soap and coloring added. Soap is leathal to fish. Take you bottle of ammonia and shake it virgorously. If it foams it has soap in it.
Yes - I just shook it, and it was all bubbly/frothy up top.

Ouch! I would suggest doing a lot of very big water changes for at lest 1 week before getting fish. That should remove most if not all the soap. staring up the substrate a little bit before the water change may also help.

 

[Yarkii]

Thank you, Steven.

That may have mostly gone over my head, lol, but I'm going to read your two new posts again when I don't have a 7yo boy, two dogs and two cats all vying for my attention. I almost missed the first one, as we're posting at the same time.

One gist I think I gathered, although this might be at least in part my elaboration, is that: if my tap water is very soft (which it is - see post just above - KH definitely under 40ppm & maybe GH too), it could be harmful for at least some of the creatures in my tank for the time it takes the KH & GH to rise to a more suitable & safe level. So, treating the water first, prior to putting it in the tank, is recommended. I'm trying to picture how to do that. I've been using a 9L watering can to put water into the tank (with 8L each time, so it doesn't slosh out as I walk from the laundry to the loungeroom). I don't know what the dose of the solution to raise hardness will be, but I imagine it'll be far too little to accurately measure it into every individual 8L that goes in, not to mention rather time-consuming to dose each individual bucket. I have been wondering how others dose during water changes, and now I see that it can be very important to get it right, somehow.

Byron has suggested Seachem Replenish to raise the GH, and I'm hoping to be able to go and get that this afternoon. I don't know which of the two GH-raising solution types it is, but I'm guessing perhaps it's without sulfates, if the other Seachem product was more suited to plants. However, I'm also using Flourish. Does Flourish lack the nutrients that you mentioned many fertilisers lack?

Also, from reading this thread, Replenish raises GH but not KH, so I'll still have the problem of some period of time with low KH water in the tank, unless I find something that raises the KH before the water goes into the tank.

Also.... this was approximately a 70% water change. I assume that with smaller water changes, the low-KH water going into the tank will have a lesser effect overall, but how little a change will be enough to remove nitrates if I'm doing weekly water changes? I guess I need to observe that too. I'm hoping that the numerous plants in there will mean that less nitrates are being produced.


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[StevenF]

Replenish is a chloride based GH booster. The Other Equilibrium is sulfate based. I don't believe you need to worry about carbonates. Your test is only detecting the carbonates dissolved in the water. Your carbonate substrate Is also available to counteract acidic PH changes. You probably have enough carbonate in your aquarium to last a 1000 years. It took 4 years for one snail shell in my aquarium to dissolve away and my ph is stable.

 

[Byron]

I would expect (and hope, frankly) that you are beginning to see what I meant when I said it will be much simpler to select fish suited to your source water than what you are aiming at here. I am leaving most of the chemistry to Steven--but one thing Steven...she has very soft source water and needs it much harder for mollies and similar livebearers, up over 12 dGH, which is the problem. You said in your last post the water looks OK...it is far from suitable for the intended fish, just so you know.

Now, to your fish questions that I can help with.

Thanks Byron. I'm trying to find something very different as well to have in the tank with the livebearers, just for a little difference. I've mostly been looking at a site AquariumIndustries.com.au, which has recommended parameters for different fish types. However, I'm aware of some contradictions between the recommended parameter ranges and the comments regarding fish compatability. I'm also mindful that this is a company's website; the company that I've just realised supplies pretty much every LFS and many pet stores for suburbs all around this part of Melbourne.

I'm really hoping that I can find a suitable (and small) catfish, but otherwise some creature that is different to the livebearers I'll get, just for interest & variety.

Once we know the GH/KH/pH that will be stable, we can easily find fish. There are catfish that will be OK with moderately hard water and a basic pH, but not extremes. You intend mollies which must have harder water (12 dGH absolute minimum, above this is better for the fish) and we need to know just where this GH will end up. So I won't start suggesting catfish yet.

I do not know the site referenced, AquariumIndustries.com.au, but will take a look later. For the record, the water parameters given for species on Seriously Fish is very reliable.

Do you think the Flourish tabs are better than using Flourish liquid at water changes? Is it a matter of using one OR the other; not both?

It depends upon the plants, and the GH (this is the prime source of the hard minerals calcium and magnesium, and possibly others if you do use some product). And the fish load, as fish food does technically contain everything needed, but again the plant species and numbers factor in. Some p[eople have healthy planted tanks with no additives at all, some like me use some additives but I keep them minimal because these things do impact fish and my first priority is the fish, not the plants which have to "be satisifed."

Flourish Tabs are best for substrate rooted plants that are heavy feeders. I have had incredible growth response from my large species sword plants, and I have used just liquid, just tabs, and both, in tests for several months in the same tank so I have a pretty good idea as to the plants' response. But for floating plants, and plants not rooted in the substrate, tabs obviously do nothing at all, and if fertilizers are needed, it has to be a liquid. I use both liquid and tabs but only in tanks with swords, otherwise no tabs and just the liquid.

The nice thing about tabs is they do not leech minerals into the upper water column, so fish are not affected and algae is not as likely to become problematic. So I tend to use the tabs for the larger plants which means I can then cut back on the liquid, with better results. I even solved my low GH issue with Flourish Tabs; the calcium deficiency (which was very pronounced) in my swords completely disappeared now that I am inserting a tab next to each sword plant about every 6-7 weeks; I add the tabs when I clean the canister filters, 6-7 weeks, so it is easy to remember. I've not used Equilibrium for almost two years now.

Liquid fertilizer is best not added right after a water change, if you use a conditioner that detoxifies heavy metals as most do. Heavy metals are iron, copper, zinc, manganese, and one or two others I can't remember, and these may be in tap water at levels safe for humans but not for fish (copper especially) so the detoxifying of metals is fine. But adding the liquid fertilizer at the same time means the conditioner may negate the metals; Seachem confirmed this with me, so I add the Flourish Comprehensive Supplement the day following a water change. Interestingly, I believe this has actually helped plants, and fish; difficult to put into words, but now I've been doing this for several months, I would recommend it and I have no intention of reversing.

 

[StevenF]

Does Flourish lack the nutrients that you mentioned many fertilisers lack?

If you are using flourish comprehensive it contains just enough CA, MG,S, and CL to cover the needs of your plants. Whichever GH booster you get will just add to that which is not dangerous.

 

[Yarkii]

I would expect (and hope, frankly) that you are beginning to see what I meant when I said it will be much simpler to select fish suited to your source water than what you are aiming at here.

Absolutely! At the time, the pictures of the fish everyone named that suited my water looked rather dull compared to livebearers, but I'm starting to understand & appreciate things a little better now, I think.

I am leaving most of the chemistry to Steven--but one thing Steven...she has very soft source water and needs it much harder for mollies and similar livebearers, up over 12 dGH, which is the problem. You said in your last post the water looks OK...it is far from suitable for the intended fish, just so you know.

I'm open to exploring the possibility of changing the fish species. I am hoping, however, that what SF says about guppies means that they're not out of the question. They don't seem too far beyond my water parameters, and perhaps with a little Replenish I can get it right. Funny though - some websites list guppies requiring dH8-dH12 GH, whilst others say they need it harder. I want to ignore the ones that say they need it higher....

Perhaps then I could find little catfish to go with the guppies, and keep it simple.

Once we know the GH/KH/pH that will be stable, we can easily find fish. There are catfish that will be OK with moderately hard water and a basic pH, but not extremes. You intend mollies which must have harder water (12 dGH absolute minimum, above this is better for the fish) and we need to know just where this GH will end up. So I won't start suggesting catfish yet.

I'll keep monitoring the water, and testing the tap water the way Steven suggested, and seeing what happens around smaller water changes, and will observe what happens with a little Replenish, before deciding which species to get.

I'll respond more to both Steven's & your posts asap. Weekends are tricky.

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