Another stocking advice thread...

[vprice1030]

Hello all! I'm a bit new to the hobby and have just upgraded from a 10 gal to a 40 gallon breeder. I've got a bit of experience in the past with FOWL marine tanks, but not so much with freshwater tropical tanks.

Anyways, I've been spinning myself in circles researching compatibility, etc and was hoping for some real-world advice rather than trying to gauge which direction to go from books alone as I plan my future stock.

Right now, I have 5 zebra danios and 1 bristle-nose pleco (still only about 2.5 inches long).
My water parameters:
pH: 6.8
gH: 3
temp: 78-79 (unfortunately my house gets a bit warmer in the summer so I need to keep fish tolerant to 75-80 degree temps, or perhaps look into a chiller)
My new tank is still cycling, but the previous tank was stable at 0/0/<20 for ammonia, nitrites, and ntirates for many months. I transferred the old filter, old substrate, old decor, old water, etc to the new tank to help the cycling along.

Anyways, I was thinking about potential stocking options over the coming months, and was thinking of something like this:
5 zebra danios
1 bristle nose pleco
5 yoyo loaches
5 rummynose tetras
5 cardinal tetras
2 german blue rams

How would that work? I go back and forth between the loaches or perhaps some corys instead.
Any advice or suggestions, or advice on where to start when I'm able to start adding fish, would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Byron]

You have soft water, so that is good to know. Your fish ideas are in keeping with that, but there are some other issues.

First, shoaling fish (all tetras, rasbora, barbs, danios, loaches, and many catfish like cories) need larger groups. Six is usually the minimum recommended, but with these fish it will always be better for the fish to have more, and it will reward you with healthier fish and more natural interactions. I'll come back to this momentarily.

Second thing I see is activity level of these fish. Rams, cardinal tetras are sedate fish (not active swimmers), while the danios are quite the opposite. The rummynose are swimmers but not as active as danios (generally speaking). Loaches are somewhat the same. Rams will not appreciate the danios or the loaches because of this activity issue. This brings me to the third issue, temperature.

Rams need warmth, with 80F being minimum on a permanent basis. The cardinals and rummynose will manage with this, but the danios definitely will not be at their best health-wise. The loaches could have it a bit cooler too.

Fourth thing is the loaches...at 5-6 inches this is not a small fish, and it needs at least a 4-foot length tank, and preferably one that has 18 inches width (front to back), so a 70, 75, 90 gallon.

The pleco is fine, whatever (though loaches might pester it). If you stay with the rams, cardinals and rummynose, you will be good. I would increase the size of the groups though for the tetras. Rummynose are always better with larger groups, at least 9 but more is better. In this sized tank, I would aim for about a dozen rummynose. Cardinals, 8-10. There is now another issue with the rams to mention.

Two rams may work if they are male/female and they bond. If they have not accepted each other, the male will usually make this known to the female and she will not last long. If two males, one will bee harassed to or nearly to death. I can explain how to find bonded pairs if asked.

On the temperature in general, summer heat waves are not usually too problematical, provided it cools down some at night. If you want the rams you need warmth anyway, permanently, so that ceases to be an issue provided you have a heater for the cooler seasons.

 

[vprice1030]

Thank you very, very much, Byron! These issues are exactly why I figured I'd ask.

I wasn't sure if the tetras needed groups of their own species, or if similar species would do (i.e. 12 total, or along those lines), so that answers that for me-- especially as the cardinals are not as active as the rummy nose.

I do have a heater for cooler weather. I'm in Portland, Oregon so while it gets quite hot during the day, it drops significantly at night. I'm hoping to have our A/C issues fixed shortly, so hopefully this won't be an ongoing issue My danios seem to have adapted ok, but I definitely understand that it's not ideal.

I am lucky enough to have a really knowledgeable store in the city and I believe they will usually only sell bonded pairs of the rams. I always feel bad going in there and asking a ton of questions because they're always crazy busy, so I'm glad I found this place to narrow down my questions and what I'm looking for first before I bother them.

I suppose this brings me to the next part of the question- given that I already have a small shoal of very active fish (the Danios), should I focus on building upon that and finding similarly active species, and perhaps forget about quieter species like the Rams? Do you have any suggestions for something that might add some color and a little bit of size, be kept singly/in pairs/small groups, and not be bothered by zooming danios?

I suspected the tank might be too small for the loaches- I was finding conflicting information about their adult size so I had my fingers crossed.

 

[JoP]

So glad you are asking about danios compatibility, I'm having the same issue as I have six zebra danios who are bonkers! I would love to add some guppies but not sure.

 

[Byron]

I do have a heater for cooler weather. I'm in Portland, Oregon so while it gets quite hot during the day, it drops significantly at night. I'm hoping to have our A/C issues fixed shortly, so hopefully this won't be an ongoing issue My danios seem to have adapted ok, but I definitely understand that it's not ideal.

It may help to expand on this issue. Fish are ectotherms, meaning that the temperature of the water they live in is their internal temperature, and temperature drives metabolism, so temperature is much more important for fish than it would be for endotherms like birds and mammals that can regulate their internal temperature to some extent. So while fish can manage with temporary periods of higher temperature than what they will function best at, making this permanent usually weakens the fish significantly causing health problems and even death. So your danios with temporary periodic warm days but cooler nights are managing well, provided it does not become extreme. But permanently, they would soon show it.

I am lucky enough to have a really knowledgeable store in the city and I believe they will usually only sell bonded pairs of the rams. I always feel bad going in there and asking a ton of questions because they're always crazy busy, so I'm glad I found this place to narrow down my questions and what I'm looking for first before I bother them.

I assume you refer to The Wet Spot. I have not been there (I live up in Vancouver, BC) but have heard much about it and browsed their online material. Lucky indeed. I can't say every employee would know all there is to know about this or that fish, so do your research.

I suppose this brings me to the next part of the question- given that I already have a small shoal of very active fish (the Danios), should I focus on building upon that and finding similarly active species, and perhaps forget about quieter species like the Rams? Do you have any suggestions for something that might add some color and a little bit of size, be kept singly/in pairs/small groups, and not be bothered by zooming danios?

At this stage, you might be able to return the danios (?) so looking at all options to work out the sort of aquarium you want may be worth it. I have primarily sedate fish in my fish room of 8 tanks, and my Diamond Tetras were so rambunctious I had to move them out of the Amazon riverscape and put them in with the loaches. The Platinum hatchetfish in the Amazon tank were clearly being annoyed especially at feeding time, and the Red Phantoms didn't look happy either. Removing the Diamonds made an obvious difference to these fish. Point is that active fish can be quite stressful without any aggressiveness to other fish.

The temperature is an issue with the rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, wild or any of the varieties) and you could work around this. Or perhaps the Bolivian Ram (M. altispinosus) which will do well at 76-77F and thus have more options? Cories for example are not warm water fish, but you could have species of cory in with the Bolivian. The cardinal tetra and rummynose are still good. I'm thinking South America species, but with quiet tankmates there are a few gourami that might be worth considering? Some are aggressive, some not so much.

 

[vprice1030]

I assume you refer to The Wet Spot. I have not been there (I live up in Vancouver, BC) but have heard much about it and browsed their online material. Lucky indeed. I can't say every employee would know all there is to know about this or that fish, so do your research.

Yep, Wet Spot. I've found some of the staff to be less knowledgeable for sure, but I think I'm starting to find my way around the go-to folks.

At this stage, you might be able to return the danios (?) so looking at all options to work out the sort of aquarium you want may be worth it. I have primarily sedate fish in my fish room of 8 tanks, and my Diamond Tetras were so rambunctious I had to move them out of the Amazon riverscape and put them in with the loaches. The Platinum hatchetfish in the Amazon tank were clearly being annoyed especially at feeding time, and the Red Phantoms didn't look happy either. Removing the Diamonds made an obvious difference to these fish. Point is that active fish can be quite stressful without any aggressiveness to other fish.

The temperature is an issue with the rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, wild or any of the varieties) and you could work around this. Or perhaps the Bolivian Ram (M. altispinosus) which will do well at 76-77F and thus have more options? Cories for example are not warm water fish, but you could have species of cory in with the Bolivian. The cardinal tetra and rummynose are still good. I'm thinking South America species, but with quiet tankmates there are a few gourami that might be worth considering? Some are aggressive, some not so much.

This is great food for thought. I liked the idea of having rams, but I've had the danios for about a year and I've gotten rather attached to them (especially the random long finned danio that somehow ended up in the group when I bought them), so I think I'll use them as a starting point and work around them. I don't anticipate the heat wave being a permanent issue (even more for my sake than theirs....is there a sweating emoji?)...by the time I'm ready to actually add stock, I'll be able to maintain cooler temps should I decide to.

Are there smaller loach species I might be able to consider?

 

[Byron]

Yes on the loach question. I assume the 40g tank is the same as mine, length 36 inches and width 18 inches. I really like this tank, it has become my favourite. Photo below shows it now, as a flooded Amazon forest set-up.

The dwarf loach, Ambastaia sidthimunki, would be fine; a group of five or six, no fewer. I had this species in my 3-foot 33g for a few years, then moved them into the 90g to be with the larger Botia kubotai, as they occur together in their habitat. A nice little loach, needs lots of chunks of wood...the Malaysian Driftwood is ideal for this as the larger chunks have tunnels and crevices. Sand substrate. More data:
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/ambastaia-sidthimunki/

Another dwarf loach I have had is Micronemacheilus cruciatus. Not seen as often, but TWS will likely be able to bring this in. These did not live more than a few years; I've had my dwarf chains for seven or eight years now.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/micronemacheilus-cruciatus/

There are some other similar loaches, but no one up here seems interested in getting them. TWS might have better luck.