29 gallon stocking ideas

[Byron]

I was actually going to start with about 5 of each and once I see what changes need to be made (moving plants to make more open space, etc...) then I would add more. Would that work?

It would work, sort of, but it is not advisable. Shoaling fish should always be acquired and introduced to an aquarium together, the entire group of the species. In all cases the fish will be less stressed this way and settle in faster with less risk of problems like ich. Some species, those with hierarchial tendencies or any degree of aggressive tendencies, must be added together or real issues may emerge. This is less likely with neons and cherries, but the first point is still relevant so get the entire intended group together.

Please provide links to any data on the rams that does not agree with what I posted as I would like to see just who is saying this. The native habitat of this species is the Llanos which is situated in the catchment area of the central Orinoco river in Venezuela and Colombia. Temperatures scarcely fluctuate throughout the year. Linke and Staeck (1994) report that air temperatures range around 40C (104 F) in the shade; at 10 am on an overcast day the air temperature was already 31C (88F) and the habitat water in which this species was living measured 28.5 C (83 F) and that was the coolest water temperature after the night.

Here are some online sources of similar data:

On the cichlid forum:
https://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=421 [Temperature: 84F.]

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/the-german-ram-mikrogeophagus-ramirezi.htm ["Mikrogeophagus ramirezi requires temperatures of 80° to 86°F (27° to 30°C). Rams are extremely sensitive to water quality."]

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfi...hagus-ramirezi-blue-ram-cichlid-guide.382040/
["And one of the biggest problems people face with keeping them is temperature. Chromedome52, a Fishlore member and veteran hobbyist, had this to say about it:

“The . . . problem is that most people try to keep Mikrogeophagus ramirezi at 78-80° F [25.6 to 26.7°C]. These fish live in shallow areas with little cover, and water temperatures in the wild often get above 90° F. The best temperature range for them is 82-86° F [27.7-30° C].” -quote from guru himself @chromedome52

With that knowledge, I keep mine at 84°F (28.9°C). In my opinion, anything under 82°F (27.8°C) is too cold."]

 

[Annemarie]

if I were to get them it would be from petsmart (online ordering males or females is too risky for me) and they keep theirs within the 72-82ish range. If theirs are alive and several others are keeping them at that temp can’t it be done somehow? I’d love to keep them at higher temps but I don’t want the other fish to be too hot. I’m not aware of some middle ground for all the fish besides keeping the rams at 78-79. That’s already pushing it for several species though.

If it’s truly impossible to keep them in temps lower than the recommended by two degrees, what other options are there for fish in the 2.5-4 inch range? I already tossed aside the idea of the pearl gourami and I’m not fond of getting a large group of honeys or a ton (more than 9) of the barbs and neons.

I’ll continue to research more about them, but I’m still seeing several sources saying they can live at that (78-79) temp.

 

[Byron]

if I were to get them it would be from petsmart (online ordering males or females is too risky for me) and they keep theirs within the 72-82ish range. If theirs are alive and several others are keeping them at that temp can’t it be done somehow? I’d love to keep them at higher temps but I don’t want the other fish to be too hot. I’m not aware of some middle ground for all the fish besides keeping the rams at 78-79. That’s already pushing it for several species though.

Now we come to another ram issue. You do not have space in a 29g for more than either one or a bonded pair. Rams like most neotropical cichlids must select their mate; you cannot put any male/female together without risk. If you have two males one will be hounded until it is dead (in this small a space). Two females might live together. A male/female pair will live together only if they have bonded, otherwise one (usually but not always the female) will be dead before long.

You cannot ever go by how stores keep fish. For one thing, the tanks in stores are about as far from what is needed as you can get which is why the fish are stressed and succumb so readily to ich. Aside from this, stores do not intend keeping any fish longer than they have to before they are sold. The longer they keep them the more they lose financially. And the relatively brief time the fish are in these unsuitable conditions usually can be tolerated by the fish. Keeping them at home is a very different proposition. Now you are taking on the responsibility of providing for the fish until death. The fish's time in your tank will determine how healthy, how "happy" and how long it lives. Providing anything less than the optimum conditions is cruel to the fish.

We cannot change nature. The fish species evolved to function in very specific environment, and it is not going to change just because we want it to. Adaptability varies depending upon the species, how much adaptability is forced on them, and the extent of that adaptability. All of this has limits. Read the green citation from Paul Loiselle, an acknowledged authority on cichlids, in my signature block. Depriving a fish of what it "expects" is frankly inhumane.

You are correct, there is no middle ground. As I have tried to explain in several posts, temperature is critical for fish. I'm not going into all that again.

If it’s truly impossible to keep them in temps lower than the recommended by two degrees, what other options are there for fish in the 2.5-4 inch range? I already tossed aside the idea of the pearl gourami and I’m not fond of getting a large group of honeys or a ton (more than 9) of the barbs and neons.

Centrepiece fish in small tanks is not easy. I prefer not suggesting fish most of the time because this has to be your tank or you may not be satisfied. I will point out issues when I see them.

I’ll continue to research more about them, but I’m still seeing several sources saying they can live at that (78-79) temp.

I do want to see these sources. Sources that spread inaccurate and false information should be identified.

 

[Annemarie]

I stated in the initial post that I was going to get 2 as my likely maximum. I was planning on getting two females (worst case one male female pair) and that getting them online would be risky as they are often unsexed.

You’ve stated several times different temperatures. First it was 26 degrees Fahrenheit as per your source (78 Fahrenheit), then a minimum of 80, then 82. I'm not trying to fight, but if you’re going to state temperatures be consistent please.

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/electric-blue-ram-full-article.htm

https://www.aquascapeaddiction.com/articles/ram-cichlid-care-sheet

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/fish-profile-bolivian-ram/

https://aquariumfish.ecwid.com/Premium-Electric-Blue-Ram-Cichlid-1-5-to-2-long-p43923133

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_cichlid (Distribution and Habitat)

http://knowledgebase.lookseek.com/Ram-Cichlid-Mikrogeophagus-ramirezi.html

http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Good_habitat.php

You might have to skim through to see the temp, but all are listed near the top. I’m not saying all of them are 100% right, but if several people are keeping them healthy and happy at that temp, it must not be impossible

 

[Byron]

Thank you.

http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Good_habitat.php
This site agrees with me. The into page (this link) is on dwarf cichlids in general, "Most dwarfs do well in a range of water conditions, however temps of 74� - 78� F are ideal. Fish will normally do just fine in temperatures a few degrees warmer or colder, but, research has shown that when breeding and raising fry temps of 76� F result in the most balanced sex ratios." They say most, not all. And if you look at their specific Ram profile, http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Ram_Cichlid_Mikrogeophagus_ramirezi.php
it states, "Rams do require water temperatures that are higher than the ideal for many other fish and are best maintained at temps of at least 80 degrees F."

http://knowledgebase.lookseek.com/Ram-Cichlid-Mikrogeophagus-ramirezi.html
This site says "78 to 85" which is not far off. Temp ranges for fish, if the source is reliable, expect the mid-range will be the norm, with the fish able to tolerate temporary increases or decreases, but not on a permanent basis. The fish's metabolism is at risk when this occurs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_cichlid
One has to be careful with Wiki data as there is no way of knowing who authored it. But even so, they too agree with me: "The natural habitat of M. ramirezi is warm (25.5-29.5 °C, 78-85 °F), acidic (pH 5.2-6.7) water courses in the llanos savannahs of Venezuela and Colombia." This temp range is likely due to the diurnal variation which is minimal, so again the fish is not being permanently forced into 78F water, and during the day and early evening the water will be very much warmer.

https://www.aquascapeaddiction.com/articles/ram-cichlid-care-sheet
"When it comes to the temperature of the water Ram Cichlids like it to be between 78 and 85 degrees Fahrenheit," again mid-range is the aim.

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/electric-blue-ram-full-article.htm
"The normal temperature range for wild ram cichlids is 78° to 85°F," same again.

The 78/790 low end of the ranges in these links are not permanent temperatures but lower extremes that the fish should be able to manage but not on a permanent basis.

So, my initial advice that 80F is the minimum for this species stands. Don't subject the fish to adverse conditions, it will not survive to its expected lifespan.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Hi,

If you are worried about the warmer water temperature requirement for Blue Ram, why not you try the Apistogramma species that require cooler temperature.

As a beginner, you can try Apistogramma Cacatuoides Double Red or Orange Flash (depending on the colour that you like) as your centrepiece fish.

Here are some videos of the fish and other centerpiece fish for 29 gallon tank.

All the best.

 

[Annemarie]

My entire thought going into this was that if I hate the look of it I’m not getting it. It initially held me back from Apistogrammas because I thought that even with the colorful fins, the body was too bland for my taste. I’m looking into them and two stand out to me: Apistogramma nijsseni (awe the dots) and the Apistogramma agassizii. I like the latter one more, and I like the red ones, but I would have to look at more color options before I decided.

I guess my new question is will the honey gourami be able to coexist with it (one of each)? I know Apistogramma can be pretty territorial and if it’s gonna be that bad I might as well toss in my gentle betta. If they can’t coexist, which would I be better off picking? I really love the look of the honeys but I also love the size of the Apistogramma.

Apologies for how picky I am, if it took me 30 minutes to pick which betta I wanted, its going to take me forever to decide between the two. A little help will probably speed up the decision

 

[Byron]

Neotropical cichlid species should not be combined in the same tank, unless it is huge in size. Cichlids and gourami should not be combined. Males of both are territorial to varying degrees. If the lone Honey Gourami is a female, it might change things, but I do not believe in risking fish but rather accepting nature and build accordingly.

 

[Annemarie]

Yeah there were a few reasons I was very hesitant to look into Apistogrammas.

I saw some very cute Badis the other day but I have a feeling you’ll tell me they won’t work either. Lord knows I’m not about to try a molly with a honey gourami either.

 

[Byron]

Yeah there were a few reasons I was very hesitant to look into Apistogrammas.

I saw some very cute Badis the other day but I have a feeling you’ll tell me they won’t work either. Lord knows I’m not about to try a molly with a honey gourami either.

If you mean the common badis, Badis badis, it has some specifics that might make it less ideal here. Said to be peaceful in a community tank of non-active and non-aggressive fish that prefer the slightly cooler temperatures; it may not eat if kept with active feeders. It will naturally prey upon shrimp. Males are territorial and can be aggressive.

 

[Annemarie]

Would I be able to keep my aquarium at about 76-77 (middle range for most of my fish) and see if that would work? No worries about shrimp btw. Snails are my go to for a lot of problems anyway

 

[Byron]

Would I be able to keep my aquarium at about 76-77 (middle range for most of my fish) and see if that would work? No worries about shrimp btw. Snails are my go to for a lot of problems anyway

Is this in reference to the Badis badis? If so...Habitat waters are subject to considerable seasonal temperature variation, but in the aquarium 20-25C/68-77F is recommended. Spawning will require warmer water at the upper end of this range. So in my view, 76-77F is high for this species on a permanent basis.

If the other species are still neon tetra, cherry barb and kuhlii loach, a temp around 74-75F (24-25C) would be my aim. The cherry barbs might be a bit problematic at feeding; neons are not aggressive feeders.

 

[Annemarie]

Yes Badis badis! (Sorry about that. Totally forgot to mention that.) I’m still keeping the kuhlis, neons, barbs, and gourami. The hood has an opening from the left to right side so I planned to scatter the food in a wider space to allow for each fish to get their fill.

Should I am for even power instead? Keep the temp at about 75 so I don’t freeze or burn any of the fish?

 

[Byron]

Yes Badis badis! (Sorry about that. Totally forgot to mention that.) I’m still keeping the kuhlis, neons, barbs, and gourami. The hood has an opening from the left to right side so I planned to scatter the food in a wider space to allow for each fish to get their fill.

Should I am for even power instead? Keep the temp at about 75 so I don’t freeze or burn any of the fish?

I would suggest 75-76F here, for what is mentioned species-wise.

I'd forgotten the gourami...but as this fish remains in the upper half, and the Badis near the substrate, seems OK. I'm not one who likes to see these sort of "stand-out" fish (I guess what some call centerpiece) together in smallish tanks. But that is just a general observation.

 

[Annemarie]

Honestly I’ll probably ditch the Badis in general but I figured if I stumbled across one I just HAD to have that I would want to be able to take care of it properly