12 Days Into Fishless Cycle... Huge Bloom, Massive Nitrites

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fatheadminnow said:
As advised above, you need to stop dosing ammonia so frequently.  You only need to dose it on the 24 hour mark.  
 
Please read this article I wrote a few years back:
 
[SIZE=12pt]Fishless cycling:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Since fish produce ammonia and since ammonia is what the Autotrophic bacteria need to start the nitrogen cycle, why can we not just buy a bottle of ammonia to simulate fish? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]*It is a really good idea to start a log of your tank for a fishless cycle.*  So for each day you take a reading of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH, you can then put that in your log so you can see how the cycle is coming along.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 1:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]  Buy a bottle of ammonia, usually ammonia comes in bottles with 9.5% or 10% diluted ammonia, both will work. Ammonia like this can usually be found at your local hardware store.  What is very important about what ammonia you select is that it must only contain ammonia and water.  Other additives will hinder the ammonia useless and will not allow the bacteria to grow.  If the bottle of ammonia does not list ingredients, then that bottle of ammonia is most likely okay to use, but to make sure give the bottle a good shake.  If the ammonia foams up, it is no good.  If there are a few air bubbles, then that is nothing to worry about.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 2: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Add up to 5 ppm of ammonia to your tank by looking at the table below.  It is very important that you add the ammonia on a 24 hour schedule. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Note: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]If your tank size does not appear, then simply choose the tank size that is closest to yours.  Slight variations like this will not matter all that much.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 3: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Check the ammonia level by using your test kit to make sure you have added the correct amount of ammonia.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 4: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Check the ammonia level every day at the 24 hour mark.  If the ammonia at the 24 hour mark starts to go down, this means that you are starting to colonize bacteria that process ammonia.  At which point the nitrite level will begin to rise.  You can then use your nitrite test kit to monitor your nitrite level.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 5: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]At the 24 hour mark, if your ammonia level is nearing 0 ppm, add ammonia back up to 5 ppm.  You will soon see that your ammonia level is dropping faster and faster and that your nitrite level is rising.  Over time, after adding ammonia back up to 5 ppm at the 24 hour mark for a couple weeks, you will begin to see your ammonia level will soon go down and hit 0 ppm at every 24 hour mark and your nitrite will be either rising, or starting to fall.  At this point your nitrate will start to rise.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 6:  [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]If your ammonia and nitrite are at 0 ppm every 24 hours, then it is time to start taking ammonia and nitrite readings every 12 hours.  So let’s say you add ammonia back up to 5 ppm at the 24 hour mark, and then 12 hours later you test your ammonia and nitrite, this is where you will be able to tell if your tank is cycled or not.  At this point, your nitrate level will be at a pretty high level, but do not worry about this yet.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]NOTE:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] It is VERY important to ONLY add ammonia at the original 24 hour mark!  Not the 12 hour mark!  If you are reading 0 ppm of ammonia at 12 hours, then wait until the 24 hour mark (12 hours later) to add ammonia back up to 5 ppm.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 7:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Once your tank is reading 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite at 12 hours, (12 hours after the 24 hour mark) you are nearly there!  At this point, continue dosing ammonia up to 5 ppm at the 24 hour mark for one more week!  This last week is called the “qualification week.”  During this week you may have a slight nitrite spike; this is why you should always perform the “qualifying week.”  Once the week is over, and you are getting both 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite (double 0’s) then you are cycled![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 8: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Now do a 90% water change, this is to lower the level of nitrate.  Add water back up to full in your tank and add the proper amount of water conditioner.  Then you are ready to add your full stocking of fish![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Here is a little example on what I mean about the 24 and 12 hour marks.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Let’s say you start your fishless cycle at 8:00 pm.  This means you add your first batch of ammonia up to 5 ppm.  The next time you check your ammonia level then would be the following day at 8:00 pm (24 hour later, hence the “24 hour mark”).  When your ammonia level starts to drop near 0 ppm at the 24 hour mark (8:00 pm) then go ahead and dose the ammonia back up to 5 ppm.  If you are consistently getting a reading of 0 ppm of ammonia every 24 hours after you have added the ammonia back up to 5 ppm the following day, then go ahead and start test for ammonia at 12 hours.  EX. Add ammonia up to 5 ppm at 8:00 pm, then at 8:00 am check the level of ammonia.  If the level of ammonia is at 0 ppm at 8:00 am, DO NOT add ammonia until the 24 hour mark (8:00 pm).[/SIZE]
 
Can I ask why are you advising to add 5ppm Ammonia?
 
The cycling article on this forum ( Fishless Cycle ) states that adding 3ppm ammonia is the recommended level. 3ppm ammoina is far more than what most normal tank fish stocking will produce at any given time and is proven to work very well, in fact in some tanks, particularly for nano tank which only a single betta or shrimps and snails are planned stocking, it is good to do just 1 or 2ppm ammonia doses max.
 
5ppm ammonia may give dangerous levels of nitrite and nitrate which may cause the cycling to stall altogether. Do bear in mind that for every 1ppm ammonia will produce :
 
For the API kit - 1ppm ammonia becomes 2.7 ppm nitrite becomes 3.6 ppm nitrate.

Or if you want to use Atomic weight - 1ppm ammonia becomes 2.55pm nitrite  becomes 3.44ppm nitrate
 
The danger level for the possibility of stalling your cycle is having nitrite is from 16ppm to 17ppm and above, if remember right, and this becomes more critical upon your ph and temperature level, so adding 5ppm ammonia can be dangerously close to stalling a fishless cycle depending on factors mentioned.
 
 
Ch4rlie said:
 
As advised above, you need to stop dosing ammonia so frequently.  You only need to dose it on the 24 hour mark.  
 
Please read this article I wrote a few years back:
 
[SIZE=12pt]Fishless cycling:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Since fish produce ammonia and since ammonia is what the Autotrophic bacteria need to start the nitrogen cycle, why can we not just buy a bottle of ammonia to simulate fish? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]*It is a really good idea to start a log of your tank for a fishless cycle.*  So for each day you take a reading of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH, you can then put that in your log so you can see how the cycle is coming along.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 1:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]  Buy a bottle of ammonia, usually ammonia comes in bottles with 9.5% or 10% diluted ammonia, both will work. Ammonia like this can usually be found at your local hardware store.  What is very important about what ammonia you select is that it must only contain ammonia and water.  Other additives will hinder the ammonia useless and will not allow the bacteria to grow.  If the bottle of ammonia does not list ingredients, then that bottle of ammonia is most likely okay to use, but to make sure give the bottle a good shake.  If the ammonia foams up, it is no good.  If there are a few air bubbles, then that is nothing to worry about.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 2: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Add up to 5 ppm of ammonia to your tank by looking at the table below.  It is very important that you add the ammonia on a 24 hour schedule. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Note: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]If your tank size does not appear, then simply choose the tank size that is closest to yours.  Slight variations like this will not matter all that much.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 3: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Check the ammonia level by using your test kit to make sure you have added the correct amount of ammonia.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 4: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Check the ammonia level every day at the 24 hour mark.  If the ammonia at the 24 hour mark starts to go down, this means that you are starting to colonize bacteria that process ammonia.  At which point the nitrite level will begin to rise.  You can then use your nitrite test kit to monitor your nitrite level.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 5: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]At the 24 hour mark, if your ammonia level is nearing 0 ppm, add ammonia back up to 5 ppm.  You will soon see that your ammonia level is dropping faster and faster and that your nitrite level is rising.  Over time, after adding ammonia back up to 5 ppm at the 24 hour mark for a couple weeks, you will begin to see your ammonia level will soon go down and hit 0 ppm at every 24 hour mark and your nitrite will be either rising, or starting to fall.  At this point your nitrate will start to rise.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 6:  [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]If your ammonia and nitrite are at 0 ppm every 24 hours, then it is time to start taking ammonia and nitrite readings every 12 hours.  So let’s say you add ammonia back up to 5 ppm at the 24 hour mark, and then 12 hours later you test your ammonia and nitrite, this is where you will be able to tell if your tank is cycled or not.  At this point, your nitrate level will be at a pretty high level, but do not worry about this yet.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]NOTE:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] It is VERY important to ONLY add ammonia at the original 24 hour mark!  Not the 12 hour mark!  If you are reading 0 ppm of ammonia at 12 hours, then wait until the 24 hour mark (12 hours later) to add ammonia back up to 5 ppm.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 7:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Once your tank is reading 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite at 12 hours, (12 hours after the 24 hour mark) you are nearly there!  At this point, continue dosing ammonia up to 5 ppm at the 24 hour mark for one more week!  This last week is called the “qualification week.”  During this week you may have a slight nitrite spike; this is why you should always perform the “qualifying week.”  Once the week is over, and you are getting both 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite (double 0’s) then you are cycled![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Step 8: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Now do a 90% water change, this is to lower the level of nitrate.  Add water back up to full in your tank and add the proper amount of water conditioner.  Then you are ready to add your full stocking of fish![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Here is a little example on what I mean about the 24 and 12 hour marks.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Let’s say you start your fishless cycle at 8:00 pm.  This means you add your first batch of ammonia up to 5 ppm.  The next time you check your ammonia level then would be the following day at 8:00 pm (24 hour later, hence the “24 hour mark”).  When your ammonia level starts to drop near 0 ppm at the 24 hour mark (8:00 pm) then go ahead and dose the ammonia back up to 5 ppm.  If you are consistently getting a reading of 0 ppm of ammonia every 24 hours after you have added the ammonia back up to 5 ppm the following day, then go ahead and start test for ammonia at 12 hours.  EX. Add ammonia up to 5 ppm at 8:00 pm, then at 8:00 am check the level of ammonia.  If the level of ammonia is at 0 ppm at 8:00 am, DO NOT add ammonia until the 24 hour mark (8:00 pm).[/SIZE]
 
Can I ask why are you advising to add 5ppm Ammonia?
 
The cycling article on this forum ( Fishless Cycle ) states that adding 3ppm ammonia is the recommended level. 3ppm ammoina is far more than what most normal tank fish stocking will produce at any given time and is proven to work very well, in fact in some tanks, particularly for nano tank which only a single betta or shrimps and snails are planned stocking, it is good to do just 1 or 2ppm ammonia doses max.
 
5ppm ammonia may give dangerous levels of nitrite and nitrate which may cause the cycling to stall altogether. Do bear in mind that for every 1ppm ammonia will produce :
 
For the API kit - 1ppm ammonia becomes 2.7 ppm nitrite becomes 3.6 ppm nitrate.

Or if you want to use Atomic weight - 1ppm ammonia becomes 2.55pm nitrite  becomes 3.44ppm nitrate
 
The danger level for the possibility of stalling your cycle is having nitrite is from 16ppm to 17ppm and above, if remember right, and this becomes more critical upon your ph and temperature level, so adding 5ppm ammonia can be dangerously close to stalling a fishless cycle depending on factors mentioned.
 
 
 
Thanks for asking this.  5ppm has been the standard for a very long time.  As long as I can remember (over a decade).  When I read the fishless cycling article on this site I was a little surprised to see someone decided to change that to 3ppm (It used to be 5ppm years back).  Even the dosing frequency was changed, as well.  And I am very well aware of the exponential increase from ammonia to nitrite and to nitrate.  A cycle will usually stall when the ammonia reaches levels of 8ppm or higher.  
 
At a 6.5 pH level, Nitrosomonas (ammonia) growth is slowed way down (until they can adapt to the change in pH).  This can stall cycles, as well.  At a pH of 6.0 and below Nitrobacter (nitrite) growth is slowed way down as well and can stall cycles.  
 
Optimal conditions for autorophic bacteria growth is a pH of around 8.0 to 8.4 and water temps around 84F.  Under these optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours.
 
The way I fishless cycle tanks has been proven over the course of many years to be be very effective.  Following the article, here on the site, will work just as good.  I guess it depends on which one you would like to follow.  That is up to you.  
 
Also, I've never had a cycle stall, even with high nitrite levels.  
 
One thing to keep in mind, as well, is when we add ammonia to the tank we do so in a sudden increase.  All of a sudden the tank has 5ppm of ammonia.  When Nitrosomonas start to process the ammonia they don't process it all right away.  They do so very slowly as they colonize and grow.  So nitrite is introduced into the tank at a much much slower rate than ammonia was.  This gives time for the Nitrobacter bacteria to to colonize and process the nitrite.
 
If you track the ammonia and nitrite readings in your tank during a fishless cycle and graph the results you will see you will have about double the level of nitrite than ammonia.  So if you dose 5ppm of ammonia you will usually see around 10 ppm of nitrite, max, unless something went wrong.
 
Please take a look at the attached picture to see this.
 
Also, there has been studies where fish have been able to thrive in nitrate of up to 400ppm.  So we obviously don't need to worry about that during a cycle lol.
Also, based on the graph I posted you can see nitrite spikes pretty much right after ammonia went to 0ppm.  This is where I'm guessing the OP is at in the cycle.  The OP is starting to see consecutive readings of 0ppm of ammonia day after day, which would tell me he is at the peak of the nitrite spike and should start to see it drop here within a week or so.
 
OP, can you give us your nitrate reading.  I would like to see the nitrate reading of your tap water vs. your tank water.  The difference in the two will tell us how far along you are in the cycle.
 

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fatheadminnow said:
Thanks for asking this.  5ppm has been the standard for a very long time.  As long as I can remember (over a decade).  When I read the fishless cycling article on this site I was a little surprised to see someone decided to change that to 3ppm (It used to be 5ppm years back).  Even the dosing frequency was changed, as well.  And I am very well aware of the exponential increase from ammonia to nitrite and to nitrate.  A cycle will usually stall when the ammonia reaches levels of 8ppm or higher.  
 
At a 6.5 pH level, Nitrosomonas (ammonia) growth is slowed way down (until they can adapt to the change in pH).  This can stall cycles, as well.  At a pH of 6.0 and below Nitrobacter (nitrite) growth is slowed way down as well and can stall cycles.  
 
Optimal conditions for autorophic bacteria growth is a pH of around 8.0 to 8.4 and water temps around 84F.  Under these optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours.
 
The way I fishless cycle tanks has been proven over the course of many years to be be very effective.  Following the article, here on the site, will work just as good.  I guess it depends on which one you would like to follow.  That is up to you.  
 
Also, I've never had a cycle stall, even with high nitrite levels.  
 
One thing to keep in mind, as well, is when we add ammonia to the tank we do so in a sudden increase.  All of a sudden the tank has 5ppm of ammonia.  When Nitrosomonas start to process the ammonia they don't process it all right away.  They do so very slowly as they colonize and grow.  So nitrite is introduced into the tank at a much much slower rate than ammonia was.  This gives time for the Nitrobacter bacteria to to colonize and process the nitrite.
 
If you track the ammonia and nitrite readings in your tank during a fishless cycle and graph the results you will see you will have about double the level of nitrite than ammonia.  So if you dose 5ppm of ammonia you will usually see around 10 ppm of nitrite, max, unless something went wrong.
 
Please take a look at the attached picture to see this.
 
Also, there has been studies where fish have been able to thrive in nitrate of up to 400ppm.  So we obviously don't need to worry about that during a cycle lol.

Also, based on the graph I posted you can see nitrite spikes pretty much right after ammonia went to 0ppm.  This is where I'm guessing the OP is at in the cycle.  The OP is starting to see consecutive readings of 0ppm of ammonia day after day, which would tell me he is at the peak of the nitrite spike and should start to see it drop here within a week or so.
 
OP, can you give us your nitrate reading.  I would like to see the nitrate reading of your tap water vs. your tank water.  The difference in the two will tell us how far along you are in the cycle.
 
I understand very well that 5ppm has long been the standard.  But, if the only reason to do something is because its always been done like that, that's a pretty poor reason.  
 
The 3ppm recommendation on our site is based on the fact that if we follow the dosing plan laid out, that the nitrites won't be able to ever exceed the level where cycles have been found to stall.  It was designed to be pretty much fool proof.  
 
A great deal of research and consideration went into the article that we have endorsed here at TFF.  It was not put together arbitrarily, nor without consideration for the specific species of bacteria we are trying to cultivate.  
 
Indeed, just would like to add a little more regarding the ammonia levels -
 
Quoted from  - http://www.cpp.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html
 
1. The label on my bottle of ammonia says it contains: "pure ammonia"; despite this, household ammonia in the U.S. is mostly water.  It is a solution of ammonium hydroxide (also called "aqueous ammonia"). The strength can vary between 5 to 10 % ammonia (that's 50,000  to 100, 000 ppm). Meyer's latest publication about this method (see below) states that since the concentration of household ammonia can vary, it's best to experiment until you bring the initial level of ammonia in the tank to 1-2 ppM. He suggests starting out with a 0.25 teaspoons (which would be about 1.25 mL) for a 20 gallon tank.
 
and this, from the same source -
 
The method remains viable.  I don't see any reason for people to NOT use the method if they take the proper precautions. After looking at the newer material,  I don't see any reason to change the basic procedure, either. What should be added is a warning to buffer your water if you have low buffering capacity (you probably should be doing this anyway, then?) and to aim for a target level of 1-2 ppM ammonia while cycling.
 
Bearing in mind the measurements used, I believe, is using the nitrogen scale. 2 ppm on that scale =  2.56 ppm on the ion scale. This is why the forum fishless cycling article uses 3 ppm.
 
One last note - when ammonia or nitrite are so high they slow or even kill the cycle, it is the NH3 (ammonia) that does it while with nitrite it is nitrous acid, an unstable by product of nitrite in water.
 
Ch4rlie said:
Indeed, just would like to add a little more regarding the ammonia levels -
 
Quoted from  - http://www.cpp.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html
 
1. The label on my bottle of ammonia says it contains: "pure ammonia"; despite this, household ammonia in the U.S. is mostly water.  It is a solution of ammonium hydroxide (also called "aqueous ammonia"). The strength can vary between 5 to 10 % ammonia (that's 50,000  to 100, 000 ppm). Meyer's latest publication about this method (see below) states that since the concentration of household ammonia can vary, it's best to experiment until you bring the initial level of ammonia in the tank to 1-2 ppM. He suggests starting out with a 0.25 teaspoons (which would be about 1.25 mL) for a 20 gallon tank.
 
and this, from the same source -
 
The method remains viable.  I don't see any reason for people to NOT use the method if they take the proper precautions. After looking at the newer material,  I don't see any reason to change the basic procedure, either. What should be added is a warning to buffer your water if you have low buffering capacity (you probably should be doing this anyway, then?) and to aim for a target level of 1-2 ppM ammonia while cycling.
 
Bearing in mind the measurements used, I believe, is using the nitrogen scale. 2 ppm on that scale =  2.56 ppm on the ion scale. This is why the forum fishless cycling article uses 3 ppm.
 
One last note - when ammonia or nitrite are so high they slow or even kill the cycle, it is the NH3 (ammonia) that does it while with nitrite it is nitrous acid, an unstable by product of nitrite in water.
 
 
That is a good idea for everyone to test their ammonia solution before so they now what % concentration they have.
 
The lower the the buffering capacity the more susceptible the pH is to changes and usually the pH is lower vs. a higher buffering capacity.  
 
I've done quite a few studies and experiments with my method of fishless cycling and stand behind my procedure 100%.  
 
It's funny, years ago when I was active on this forum everyone dosed 5ppm and followed the method I talk about.  I wonder what changed? lol
 
I've uploaded an ammonia dosage chart.  It's a nice quick reference for dosing ammonia without doing any calculations.  There are two charts, one for 9.5% ammonia and one for 10% ammonia.  I pulled the chart straight out of my book.
 
Like mentioned before, 5ppm is a very good indication on the output of ammonia in a fully stocked fish tank.  Now, the fish aren't going to be putting out a constant source of 5ppm constantly.  That would put you into a fish-in cycle,  Instead, the 5ppm allows you to colonize enough bacteria to handle a fully stocked tank of fish immediately after the cycle is complete.
 

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For those who asked regarding nitrates:

Tap: 0.0 ppm
Tank #1: 80 ppm
Tank #2: 5 ppm
 
Looks like to me that your cycle is progressing nicely.  You were having the nitrite issue with tank #1, correct?
 
I've been having all the issues with tank #1. Tank #2 has come along perfectly so far.
 
Okay.  The fact that you have around 80ppm of nitrate tells me that you cycle is coming along well.  Hopefully not much longer until your nitrite starts to drop towards 0ppm.
 
Been status quo for a while.... 0.0 ppm ammonia each morning dosed back to 4-5 ppm; lather, rinse, repeat. Nitrates hovering around 80 yesterday. Nitrites seem to be about 5.0 ppm per tank. Talk about boring....
 
lol yeah cycling takes a while sometimes.  Hang in there the nitrite will drop.
 
Gomez22 said:
Been status quo for a while.... 0.0 ppm ammonia each morning dosed back to 4-5 ppm; lather, rinse, repeat. Nitrates hovering around 80 yesterday. Nitrites seem to be about 5.0 ppm per tank. Talk about boring....
You don't need to add 4-5 ppm ammonia daily.   That is going to delay the entire process.  Add 2-3 ppm every 4 or 5 days, and the nitrite will come down much faster.  
 
eaglesaquarium said:
 
Been status quo for a while.... 0.0 ppm ammonia each morning dosed back to 4-5 ppm; lather, rinse, repeat. Nitrates hovering around 80 yesterday. Nitrites seem to be about 5.0 ppm per tank. Talk about boring....
You don't need to add 4-5 ppm ammonia daily.   That is going to delay the entire process.  Add 2-3 ppm every 4 or 5 days, and the nitrite will come down much faster.  
 
 
May I ask, how will it delay the process?  If you're dosing less frequent then yes, you will see a drop in nitrite because there's more time in between dosing which allows the bacteria to process the nitrite.  But you're not colonizing more bacteria.  In fact you will more than likely colonize less form the lower supply of nitrite.  When you dose everyday (if the ammonia is at 0ppm) this will keep a constant and consistent supply of nitrite to the bacteria.  The bacteria don't just colonize a filter randomly, they colonize to the size required to process the ammonia and nitrite.  So, dosing less frequent, allows longer time in between for the bacteria to process the nitrite ( so you're going to see a drop).  It's not doing anything better, in terms of bacteria colonization, than dosing everyday.  If you dose everyday you may not see a drop right away.  You will see a drop once the nitrite (or ammonia in other cases) bacteria are large enough to properly handle the supply of ammonia or nitrite they are getting.  This is what you want.
 
How do I know this?  I wrote an article on autotrophic bacteria limitations to colonization using differential equations.  It's actually on this site somewhere if someone can find it lol.
 
Also, let's not forget the die off rate of nitrosifyers (ammonia processing) bacteria when there is no ammonia source in the water.  It's just a matter of days until they are near 50% population, or less, than what they were.
 
I would suggest to dose a little less than 4-5.  I would aim to around 3-4 now.  You're going to see a constant source of nitrite at your point in the game.  Once the nitrite drops you will be nearing the end of the cycle.
 
fatheadminnow said:
 
 

Been status quo for a while.... 0.0 ppm ammonia each morning dosed back to 4-5 ppm; lather, rinse, repeat. Nitrates hovering around 80 yesterday. Nitrites seem to be about 5.0 ppm per tank. Talk about boring....
You don't need to add 4-5 ppm ammonia daily.   That is going to delay the entire process.  Add 2-3 ppm every 4 or 5 days, and the nitrite will come down much faster.
 
 
May I ask, how will it delay the process?  If you're dosing less frequent then yes, you will see a drop in nitrite because there's more time in between dosing which allows the bacteria to process the nitrite.  But you're not colonizing more bacteria.  In fact you will more than likely colonize less form the lower supply of nitrite.  When you dose everyday (if the ammonia is at 0ppm) this will keep a constant and consistent supply of nitrite to the bacteria.  The bacteria don't just colonize a filter randomly, they colonize to the size required to process the ammonia and nitrite.  So, dosing less frequent, allows longer time in between for the bacteria to process the nitrite ( so you're going to see a drop).  It's not doing anything better, in terms of bacteria colonization, than dosing everyday.  If you dose everyday you may not see a drop right away.  You will see a drop once the nitrite (or ammonia in other cases) bacteria are large enough to properly handle the supply of ammonia or nitrite they are getting.  This is what you want.
 
How do I know this?  I wrote an article on autotrophic bacteria limitations to colonization using differential equations.  It's actually on this site somewhere if someone can find it lol.
 
Also, let's not forget the die off rate of nitrosifyers (ammonia processing) bacteria when there is no ammonia source in the water.  It's just a matter of days until they are near 50% population, or less, than what they were.
 
I would suggest to dose a little less than 4-5.  I would aim to around 3-4 now.  You're going to see a constant source of nitrite at your point in the game.  Once the nitrite drops you will be nearing the end of the cycle.
 

 
It delays the process because every time you add ammonia, you get more nitrite.  Add less ammonia and you get less nitrite.  So, if one continues to add 5ppm ammonia daily, the nitrite levels continue to rise and rise and rise.  The nitrite bacteria take longer to deal with that level of nitrite, and the actual nitrite bacteria we are looking to cultivate are best at trace levels of nitrite (somewhere around 0.14 ppm).  The higher the nitrite levels are, the more we are actually encouraging a different species of bacterium.  
 
 
At this point in the cycle, there already is a more than sufficient steady supply of nitrite, adding more ammonia just means an even larger amount of nitrite that needs to be processed.  
 
Based on the dosage you are suggesting you require a LARGER colony of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria, as they need to process the amount that is produced by the ammonia bacs with the amount you've added that day PLUS some additional nitrite for what has been produced in the past that has not yet been processed.   Otherwise, the nitrite levels will never reach zero.
 
I am aware you wrote an article about it on this site.  I am also aware that the understanding of science changes over time and that that article is referencing things which have been found to not be completely accurate.  For example:
 
Also, let's not forget the die off rate of nitrosifyers (ammonia processing) bacteria when there is no ammonia source in the water.  It's just a matter of days until they are near 50% population, or less, than what they were.
 
That's inaccurate.  The population does immediately die off, but instead becomes dormant.  And rate at which it comes out of dormancy depends on how long it has been dormant for.  The longer it is dormant, the longer it takes to bounce back.  The shorter the amount of time it is dormant, the faster it bounces back when a fresh supply of ammonia is present.
 
 
Here is a brief snippet:
 
 
Although the recovery after short-term starvation for other AOB strains, for example members of the 
Nitrosomonas oligotropha cluster orNitrosospira briensis, is very fast as well, there are considerable differences among AOB strains in recovery after long periods of starvation. In a study by Bollmann et al. (2002)Nitrosomonas europaea recovered faster from ammonium starvation than the Nitrosomonas oligotropha-related AOB strain G5-7. After 1–10 weeks of ammonium deprivation, Nitrosomonas europaea regained its activity within 1–2 h after the addition of fresh ammonium.  In contrast, the regeneration time of strain G5-7 increased with increasing starvation time: after a starvation period of 1–2 weeks, the strain started to oxidize fresh ammonium almost immediately, but after 4 weeks of starvation, a lag period of several hours was observed, and after 10 weeks, 5 days were needed before ammonia oxidation started. Thus, because rapid recovery after starvation could confer a competitive advantage, Nitrosomonas europaea may outcompete Nitrosomonas oligotropha-like AOB under fluctuating NH4+ availability, despite the lower Ks values for NH4+ of the latter AOB group (Bollmann et al., 2002).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6941.2006.00170.x/full#ss3
 
Please note that this is dealing with ammonium deprivation for weeks and not mere days, and the rapidity of the AOBs (ammonia-oxidizing bacteria) is nearly 'instantaneous' in terms of a cycling process.
 
 
 
I asked a while back where the 5ppm ammonia dose came from as a reference for a 'fully stocked' tank.  I'm not sure if you missed the question or not, so I will restate it here.
 
 
My understanding for a 'well-stocked' tank would be a rise of no more than 40 ppm nitrate during the course of a week.  If that is true and we work backwards, then the amount of ammonia put out by the fish on a daily basis would be far lower than 5ppm.  
 
40ppm nitrate over a week would mean less than 6ppm nitrate daily.  
 
6ppm nitrate daily would come from less than 2 ppm ammonia daily.  As 1ppm ammonia becomes ~3.5ppm nitrate.  So a dose of 3ppm ammonia would be over 50% more than is necessary for a fully stocked tank, and the 5ppm you recommend would be much more than double the necessary amount.
 
I stand behind my own research but thanks for the info.  Some of this stuff is newly discovered so thanks for the link to that article.  The fishless cycling method, on this site, has changed so many times but I still stick with my method because it has been proven to work for me and my customers time after time again.
 
I still like to dose near 5ppm at the beginning and taper off near the end.  However, I still like to dose everyday, per my method.   I'll do some further studies in the coming months for my own personal gain.  Thanks for the info, though, I do stand corrected on some of the information such as the dormancy.  It was thought, back in the day, they die off instead of go dormant.  However I have seen much longer rebound times than a mere 2 hours.  I have seen days so I find that part to not be totally accurate compared to my research.  
 

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