[Tropicoll]

Greetings all!

I've been reading "stuff" on the forum for a couple of weeks and really like the advice and friendliness of the peeps here.

I bought a Clear Seal 39 Litre tank just over a week ago:



I would have loved something bigger but this just sits perfectly in the corner next to the computer.

Just starting the fishless cycle today (having filled the tank up 8 days ago and let it rest with the filter (Fluval 2 Plus) and heater (100w - a little over rated but the LFS (not where I bought it from!) said it would be ok) running.

Using an API Master Test Kit (only purchased yesterday - pay day!) I got the following readings from the tap water:

Ph 7.6
Ammonia and Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10

Tank water tests came out at:

Ph 7.6
Ammonia 2
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10.

Following the calculator on this very website I have added 1.25 ml of Ammonia (9.5%) to bring the reading up to approximately 5 ppm.

I am going to use the Add & Wait method and test the ammonia levels daily to see what happens.

I know that I can't get many fish in there, possibly 6 small tetras and a bottom feeder.

If I can prove to the wife that I can keep this tank clean and friendly then I may be able to get a 3 or 4 ft (yay!) sometime next year.

So, any advice that anyone can offer would be much appreciated!

Coll

This post has been edited by Tropicoll: 20 November 2008 - 08:00 PM

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Coll. It looks like you are on the right track to success. I only wish more people would read up on proper cycling before getting themselves into trouble. You will have the next few weeks to look around at the fish in the stores and decide what you like. If there is any way we can help, it is why we are here. That is a good beginning tank size and will give you a few options of what fish to keep. For bottom feeders, I am partial to the pygmy sized corydoras called habrosus. These little guys don't present much bioload and swim around with all the other fish in the tank. This is a picture of a habrosus. They get to just over an inch long. For a sense of perspective, this one is on a substrate of coarse sand, not gravel.

[Tropicoll]

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I was talking to a friend this morning about the tank and he mentioned that he'd set a (coldwater) tank up a few months ago, waited 2 weeks and put the fish in. Unsurprisingly (but unfortunately) he's lost most of them. He has been educated on the fishless cycle and will hope fully be joining the forum sometime soon!

I tested just the ammonia level in the tank a few minutes ago (22 hours after adding - I have been called in to work ) and the reading is somewhere around the 4ppm level same as it was an hour after adding. Ho hum. I'll keep checking and see what happens over the next 7 days.

That Habrosys is gorgeous! Tiny too! Either that's VERY coarse sand or the fish really is small. Looks ideal and just what I'm looking for.

I'll update when I do the next ammonia test, unfortunately around 6pm Monday.

Collin

[Declan]

Welcome to the forum!

I dont really have much advice, but I want to say one thing;

The people on here give you advice for free, and it benefits them in no way shape or form, what the people at your LFS say is to make a sale, so please, come to us rather than them

[waterdrop]

One of the nicest little habrosus I've seen OM47, is that a stock photo you found or one of your little guys?

~~waterdrop~~

[OldMan47]

That is one of mine in my endler tank WD.

Don't be too surprised if the readings don't change at all for several days Coll. In a typical cycle situation, there are so few bacteria when you start out that there is almost nothing to grow into a larger colony so it takes a fair amount of time to see any result. Once you see some nitrites start to appear the situation is similar, it seems like forever before there are enough nitrite eaters to start reducing nitrite numbers.

[waterdrop]

Your gravel is pristine OM47, I would expect no less

Yes, Coll, to echo what oldman said, you can not expect to see ammonia drop much, or very fast usually, in the first few days. A brand new fishless cycling tank with no mature media will only have a handful of ammonia oxidizing bacteria (A-Bacs) and this starting amount will vary greatly but very randomly in a given tank situation. This handful of bacteria need to divide and double themselves. They take many more hours to do this than normal heterotrophic bacteria do. They are also subject to a phenomenon known as the "lag" phase, where the cell gathers the right materials and conditions before it can trigger cell division. All these things need to happen and the colony needs to build up millions of cells before the ammonia test can even detect a tiny difference caused by the young little new population munching on ammonia!

~~waterdrop~~

[OldMan47]

To understand it better, think of the population doubling every 24 hours. 1 becomes 2 becomes 4 etc. I just did a quick calculation and at the end of 21 days, one becomes over 2 million. The math idealizes everything and real life bacteria do not behave like the mathematical formula but it can give you a feel for things. We are trying to get to the 2 million end of the cycle and at day 7 we are only at 128, using the same formula. The impact on ammonia levels is that much less at day 7 than where we are headed. It is also why things seem to speed up toward the end. Day 20 we are at 1 million, day 19 half a million, day 18 a quarter million. You can see how the last 3 days we went from a small noticeable change to a fully developed functioning level. Pick your starting point as far as initial population and your final point as far as needed population and the ratios don't change. All that changes is the totals so the principle is right no matter the real world numbers. I definitely don't know the right numbers to use but I do know that doubling time is about a day.

[Tropicoll]

Folks, thankyou so much for taking the time to reply!

I understand that the ammonia level wouldn't drop, but I live optimistic! I'll keep testing it and see what happens.

Having looked around a bit more, I will definitely be getting a Habrosus or two. Now I just need to decide what else I want to put in with them! Oooh decisions decisions!

I will have to do some more looking and comparisons.

[waterdrop]

Good Luck. Perform your tests on a regular basis and be very consistent with your logbook notes. Each time you cycle a tank its an opportunity to learn and get a feel for going it better the next time.

Sometimes people will say not to bother with too many tests, say at an early stage like this, but for most, its a pretty cheap way to possibly get a little better glimpse of what goes on and to engage your own interest and learning.

~~waterdrop~~

[drobbyb]

waterdrop, on Nov 2 2008, 10:08 PM, said:

Sometimes people will say not to bother with too many tests, say at an early stage like this, but for most, its a pretty cheap way to possibly get a little better glimpse of what goes on and to engage your own interest and learning.

~~waterdrop~~

Knowing > not knowing IMO. It dosen't hurt to test.

[Tropicoll]

Me Again!

Doesn't waiting take a long time ...

Well, just tested the Ammonia in the water and it's a very definite 4ppm. I suspect the previous reading was a little higher. These kits aren't that easy to read are they!

However, I do want to ask a question on lighting and the plants.

If you look at the photo in the first post you'll see that I have three plants - Echinodorus 'Rose' on the left, Cryptocoryne at the back and a third one on the right in front of the skull. Can anyone identify the third one? I can't.

I have an 8 watt Classica Ocean Moonlight tube lighting the tank for 8 - 10 hours a day (depending on whether my wife remembers to switch it on when she gets home from work!)

The third (unidentified plant) still has green tips but the base of each "frond" has gone brown. So, is the tube I have lighting the tank suitable or do you think I should switch to a standard "sunlight" tube?

Switching is not a problem although my wife does like the blue light. There's not enough room in the lid for two tubes so I think I will end up getting some blue LEDs or maybe even the submersible spot lamps that I've seen in some shops.

By the way, I thought I'd try something a little different and have put my test test log on Google Documents and shared it with the world. Anybody can read it. I'll add some details about the tank on there for ease of reference.
Apologies for the longish post, I think I have an attack of verbosity today!

This post has been edited by Tropicoll: 06 November 2008 - 05:45 PM

[Tropicoll]

Fishless Cycle Day 9 on 39l/10g Tank:
4 plants (one added today, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!

Test time 1630

Water Temperature 25 deg C

API Master Liquid test kit results

Ph Not tested
Ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrite: 5 (actually five PLUS!)
Nitrate: 20

I have added 1.25 ml of ammonia to top up to 4ppm (will test in an hour or so).

I also added a new plant and had a shuffle in the tank.

I make the assumption that I will have to do a water change this week (probably tomorrow or Tuesday), dependent on the Nitrate readings over the next couple of days?

Also, any advice for this or my previous post would be much appreciated!

Collin

This post has been edited by Tropicoll: 09 November 2008 - 08:01 PM

[waterdrop]

Well, on the face of it, your fishless cycle looks to be getting off to a fast start!

Showing a strong ammonia drop (how many hours?) and spiking nitrites at 9 days seems more like a cycle seeded with mature media!

Your reporting is really good. Here's how it could be even better:

"Fishless Cycle Day 9" add so that it says "Fishless Cycle Day 9 on 39L/10G tank"
add line "X (3?) plants, no decorations, no bogwood, no extra chemicals" etc.
"Test Time 1630" ---> "Test time X, X hours after adding ammonia"
"pH not tested" (test pH along with other tests, it can crash on you if you don't watch it)

water change? maybe if nitrates get real high, but probably I'd leave it be!

You have a 10G tank, so a typical 15 or 18 watt fluourescent tube would be the minimum type wattage you'd want I'd think. You may want plant tabs under the roots to help fertilize them in addition to any fertilization you are doing to the water column.

~~waterdrop~~

[Tropicoll]

Hi WD

Many thanks for taking the time to reply!

I have edited the previous post with the log suggestions you made.

At 1940 tonight I tested the pH and High pH while checking the ammonia:

pH: 7.6 (topped the scale)
High pH: 8
Ammonia: 4 (couldn't have been any closer! Used the calculator on the site. VMT to whoever designed it!)

I'll try and get to the LFS and pick up some fertilizing tabs.

As for the light, I might run in to trouble with it. Unfortunately it's a 12" tube as that's all that will fit in the lid. Couple to that the starter is only capable of running 6/8 watts I'm stuck with it. Of course, I could get a second tank (I'm thing of a Betta tank...) and use that and see if I can get something brighter in a 12" to go in this tank.

[waterdrop]

On pH, that means your pH is 8 and you can switch to just using the High pH test unless it drops and gives you a reading at the bottom of its scale, then you would have to check it with the lower one. You don't have to waste liquid from both kits unless you are near the crossover points they share.

On the light problem I was just trying to put you between 1 and 2 watts per gallon (for "easy plants", "low light technique" as they say.) Yes, if you made this your betta light with no plants or fake ones that might be a solution and then got a new tank/light for using with live plants. Be aware that the "watt/gallon" rule doesn't hold very will for very small (like yours?) or for very large and I kinda forget how the rule changes, so you might do searches and persue that in the planted and hardware forums if you want.

There may also be some weird solution to your problem that I don't know of like some sort of converter or something the hardware guys would know or something. Good luck!

~~waterdrop~~

[OldMan47]

The way it works, and for me it's easier to remember this way, is that the rule falls apart because we really don't care about gallons. We really care about how much light falls on each square inch of water surface because that relates to how much falls on each square inch of leaf. If you think about the surface area of a 5 and a 15 gallon tank, the area only goes up a little while the volume has tripled. What it means is that 2 WPG over a small tank is more like 1 WPG would be over a large tank. Since most of the thumb rules about lighting came from people playing around with 4 ft long tanks, you would treat the 2 WPG of a 10 gallon as if it were only 1WPG. On a really large volume tank, much of the added volume comes from deeper water and a bit more distance from front to back on the tank. That means that 2 WPG might have the effect of say 2.5 WPG. As long as you keep in mind the concept of volume vs area, you won't get it wrong.

[petertr]

Looks like your cycle is going very well. Ammonia is being converted into Nitrite. Seems that the 2nd stage of the cycle takes twice as long as the first - so there's a little more waiting to go I'm afraid.


I wouldn't change too much water as you will lose the nitrite source for the bacteria, but a 25% every 3-4 days shouldn't hurt if you want to try to see why the pH has risen. Is there anything with calcium carbonate in there? Crushed coral?

Might be worth testing the kh and gh of the water - although its not all that important really.


As for the lighting, are you saying you only have the one "moon light" and nothing else? If you want plants, I understood that you need a proper light in there.

[Tropicoll]

Hi guys

Many thanks for the responses. I'm not too concerned about changing the water right now, I want to see what happens with the Nitrites before I go too far. I will probably do a small water change at the weekend.

As far as I know there's nothing with calcium carbonate in there, the substrate is a black gravel. No crushed coral or similar. I have 4 plants, 1 small piece of bogwood, the heater and filter (Fluval 2+).

Am at work so can't post last night's test results (in my log in my sig though ) but will post them along with tonight's results later.

When I can (hopefully tonight or tomorrow) I will get to the LFS and pick up some fertilizing tabs and tests for kH and gH (I have the paper tests but trust them not a bit!).

I do indeed only have the "moon light" at the moment and it's starting to bug me. I think for the short term (a couple of weeks!) I will get a standard sun type bulb. I have found some "compact" lights that I think will work to replace the 8w buld with 15 or 18w but I will start a new thread in general tropical discussion so as not to pollute this thread too much.

Thanks again!

[waterdrop]

Peter and Trop,

In fishless cycling, small percentage water changes have almost no meaning. As long as you remember to recharge ammonia up to (usually 3ppm during the ammonia spike period) your desired level after a water change, there never need be any concern about having "nitrite food" in the water, there will be plenty despite even a complete water change.

In general, any water change during a fishless cycle will bring a pause, adding perhaps a day or so to your overall fishless cycling time. There are, however, reasons to like an occassional water change during the nitrite spike 2nd phase. Once nitrates(NO3) especially have built way up, there are reports that clearing most of this as well as the spiking nitrite is good for speeding up especially N-Bac growth. Also, it can lower your nitrite(NO2) readings down to where you get a time or two of seeing them exhibiting some movement, which can lift the spirits of some fishless cyclers who feel nothing is happening.

I would wait though, for NO3 to get pretty high, then do a nice 90% change with gravel clean. Its good practice for the gravel cleaning you'll be doing each week in the future.

~~waterdrop~~