17 replies to this topic

[adam1882]

Hi. I recently aquired a small tank. It is around 18 litres capacity, nothing much. I am not passionate about fishkeeping it is more ornamental than anything, however I want to care for the fish best I can.

I went to the local aquatic shop and asked for advice, the shopkeeper told me in such a small tank no pump or filter was required, and he sold me six white cloud minnows and some oxygenating plant, and said to come back for a couple of Danio in a couple of weeks if all was well. He instructed me to do a small water change every other day and this should provide enough oxygen for the fish. I did exactly as he said, including fishing out uneaten food. All was fine for a couple of days, but then within 48 hours three of the little guys had died. It might sound daft but I was a bit gutted. I went and reported it to the shop and he stressed that I didn't need a filter in the tank or a pump.

The three remaining white cloud seem to be doing okay, at one point they seemed to be gasping for air but over the last couple of days seem to have gotten back to using the whole tank rather than the top inch.

I am a fish novice, so I am just looking for some advice.

Thanks,
Adam.

[lljdma06]

If you're a fish novice, I don't mean to sound harsh, but I wouldn't start out with a tank that small and certainly not with any coldwater species that I'm aware of. You can possibly keep a betta (not coldwater) comfortably in that size of a tank, but you have to be up on the maintenance and unless you live in a tropical location or in a home with a rather warm ambient temperature, you'll at least need a heater. I've kept bettas without filters, so IMO they're not absolutely necessary. Clean water, however, is very necessary.

That being said, I have run tanks that small or even smaller with a small school of something. Just not White cloud mountain minnows. I went with very tiny rasboras from the genus Boraras and pygmy corydoras. The tank was also very densly planted and had strong circulation/filtration. Again, however, this isn't a system for a novice. There are also marine systems that small, but again, not for a novice.

I really don't want to cause you undo stress. I again apologize for giving an answer that A. conflicts with a lfs & B. probably not what you wanted to hear. If you do your research and plan accordingly, you can have a very lovely small tank. There is nothing wrong with a small tank. I keep many of them, you just have to be up on their maintenance. Less water = less room for error. Less of a buffer for dissolved pollutants and chemicals.

That you say your not passionate about it is what has steered the course of my answer.

L

[deftuch]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

[Rummynose]

Sadly too many LFS' give advise that is harmful to fish. The minnows may have died from ammonia poisoning. Good for you to look for second opinions, and you have come to a great place here. There are a lot of people on this forum who will be happy to share their knowledge with you.

As you already know the fish produce ammonia (their waste) and uneaten, rotting food will also add ammonia to your water. You either need to change at least 80% of the water daily or add a small filter to the tank. Not only does the filter add oxygen to your tank but a cycled filter will provide a nice mini-eco-system which is much healthier for your fish. A cycled filter means it has established colonies of bacteria in it which will convert ammonia into nitrites, and the nitrites into nitrates.

If you have a cycled filter on your tank you need to change only 50% of the water about once a week to remove the nitrates and replenish used up minerals!

If your LFS meant the celestial danios, they are micro rasboras, and would be fine, but Zebra Danios would need a lot more room, they are bigger and fast swimmers. You could also make a shrimp tank. Before you stock your tank look at some 5 gallon stocking ideas! Before you buy any fish always check their adult sizes, as well as their needs in terms of minimum tank size, water temperature, and suitable tank-mates. The ph of your city's water may also limit you somewhat although most fish can adapt to your ph just fine.

You may want to invest in a liquid test kit (API, Nutrafin...) so you can check your water parameters. Especially during the cycling process you will want to know how high the ammonia and nitrite levels are, so you know when you need to change the water. If you're doing a fish-in-cycle, meaning you have fish in your tank while you are establishing those bacteria colonies in your filter, then you need to keep those levels as close to 0 as you can. Ammonia and Nitrite are toxic to fish and even low levels can be harmful. Never allow the levels to go above .25!!! Later you will want to know the levels of Nitrates in your tank, most people keep them between 10-20 ppm, and if you have a planted tank you can keep them a little higher!

I know it looks like a lot right now, but it really is quite easy! I hope you will give it a chance, and in time you may find that a bigger tank is a lot easier to take care of!

[adam1882]

Thanks guys. Really appreciate your time to reply.

I simply don't have time to be passionate about the tank, but as I say I don't want any harm to come to the fish. I am an animal lover and I treat the fish as such. I went into the shop fully expecting to spend a decent amount of money and was suprised when it cost barely nothing.

I did leave the fish in the bag for ten minutes floating on the tank, again as the shopkeeper told me.

I am currently changing the water at a rate of about a pint a day, as I was told.

Touch wood, the three minnow seem fairly happy at the moment.

It is a relief to hear that I am not doing them any harm by not having an air pump.

Adam.

[sadguppy]

I would get a small filter, you can get small ones suitable for a small tank like yours and it'll make their lives much better. Plus it'll keep it cleaner and require much less of your time.

[Bugdozer]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

The statement "your fish died because your tank isn't cycled" is incompatible with the "you shouldn't need a filter if you only stock minnows" sentence. Just saying. Apostrophes provided free of charge, btw.

[adam1882]

Any chance of advising me on a small filter? The fluval ones look as though they will take up quite a chunk of my tank.

[Rummynose]

Any chance of advising me on a small filter? The fluval ones look as though they will take up quite a chunk of my tank.

That depends on what you like and what kind of aquarium you have, also on your stocking.
There are undergravel filters, there are hang-over-the-back-filters (HOB's), canister (more for bigger tanks)...

I love HOB filters, have them on both my tanks, by Aquaclear! They are the waterfall kind and easy to maintain. What I don't like about them is that should the power go out when you're not home, the filter media could dry out! When the power comes back on, the filter may not be able to draw the water back into its housing and result in the motor burning out.

My 10 gallon tank was a kit and came with a Marina Slim 15 filter, they are OK too, also hang over the back. But I found it did not provide enough flow in my tank so I switched!

The waterfall type filters make some gurgling-water-fall sounds, but if you keep the water level high it is not quite so loud.

I haven't been in this hobby that long, so I'm sure there are many members who can give you more info!

[deftuch]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

The statement "your fish died because your tank isn't cycled" is incompatible with the "you shouldn't need a filter if you only stock minnows" sentence. Just saying. Apostrophes provided free of charge, btw.

not really. the tank should contain used fish tank water from a cycled tank to begin with that way they are introduced into what is effectively a cycled tank, it would be easier on them than acclimatising them into simple tap water. this is my point. a little unclear i guess

[Grant1897]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

The statement "your fish died because your tank isn't cycled" is incompatible with the "you shouldn't need a filter if you only stock minnows" sentence. Just saying. Apostrophes provided free of charge, btw.

not really. the tank should contain used fish tank water from a cycled tank to begin with that way they are introduced into what is effectively a cycled tank, it would be easier on them than acclimatising them into simple tap water. this is my point. a little unclear i guess

Your points not unclear, it's wrong. Using used fish water will not help. I really suggest you do some research before you trying to advise people, because what your saying is wrong and will result in more fish deaths,

It simple terms It doesn't matter what water you use, fish produce waste if there is no cycled filter to remove this waste and the harmful chemicals it produces then the dirty water will harm fish.

[fluttermoth]

Any chance of advising me on a small filter? The fluval ones look as though they will take up quite a chunk of my tank.

I would look at the small sponge or box air driven filters. They are very good for small tanks and you don't have many fish to support.

You'll still have to keep up the daily water changes for the next few weeks though, until the filter bacteria grow. I would agree with Rummynose and lljdma that adding a small heater and keeping possibly three or four male guppies or Endler's, or a betta, but not White Clouds is your best bet, apart from getting a bigger tank.

[adam1882]

Thanks for your advice everyone. I am going to invest in a small heater and a filter this weekend. Get rid of the plastic ornament crap and get some plants.

I still have a couple of white cloud in there, do I need to start from scratch with the tank or am I okay to use the water already in there?

[Rummynose]

Thanks for your advice everyone. I am going to invest in a small heater and a filter this weekend. Get rid of the plastic ornament crap and get some plants.

I still have a couple of white cloud in there, do I need to start from scratch with the tank or am I okay to use the water already in there?

I'd do at least an 80% water change, since you don't know the level of ammonia in there! It also would make it easier to plant your plants. Easy plants that don't require much light are java fern and anubias, but those two you don't plant, or their "rhizome" will rot. You can tie them on to something until they start grabbing on. Mossballs are a fun addition too!

[deftuch]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

The statement "your fish died because your tank isn't cycled" is incompatible with the "you shouldn't need a filter if you only stock minnows" sentence. Just saying. Apostrophes provided free of charge, btw.

not really. the tank should contain used fish tank water from a cycled tank to begin with that way they are introduced into what is effectively a cycled tank, it would be easier on them than acclimatising them into simple tap water. this is my point. a little unclear i guess

Your points not unclear, it's wrong. Using used fish water will not help. I really suggest you do some research before you trying to advise people, because what your saying is wrong and will result in more fish deaths,

It simple terms It doesn't matter what water you use, fish produce waste if there is no cycled filter to remove this waste and the harmful chemicals it produces then the dirty water will harm fish.

yeah ok mate sure! get lost i know what im talking about thankyou, i gave advice. i keep my tank perfectly healthy and clean if i gave this guy my tank water it would technically be the same as me putting his fish in my tank so to speak! surely it would be better for the fish to live in my tank than just conditioned tapwater with and nothing else. exactly, youl do well to not reply as im not getting in a dispute with you!

[sadguppy]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

The statement "your fish died because your tank isn't cycled" is incompatible with the "you shouldn't need a filter if you only stock minnows" sentence. Just saying. Apostrophes provided free of charge, btw.

not really. the tank should contain used fish tank water from a cycled tank to begin with that way they are introduced into what is effectively a cycled tank, it would be easier on them than acclimatising them into simple tap water. this is my point. a little unclear i guess

Your points not unclear, it's wrong. Using used fish water will not help. I really suggest you do some research before you trying to advise people, because what your saying is wrong and will result in more fish deaths,

It simple terms It doesn't matter what water you use, fish produce waste if there is no cycled filter to remove this waste and the harmful chemicals it produces then the dirty water will harm fish.

yeah ok mate sure! get lost i know what im talking about thankyou, i gave advice. i keep my tank perfectly healthy and clean if i gave this guy my tank water it would technically be the same as me putting his fish in my tank so to speak! surely it would be better for the fish to live in my tank than just conditioned tapwater with and nothing else. exactly, youl do well to not reply as im not getting in a dispute with you!

Sorry but you really are wrong. There is nothing beneficial that 'used' water has over clean, dechlorinated tap water and it will most certainly have fewer minerals and higher nitrates once fish have lived in it. Fish don't actually care what they swim in as long as liquid, got good oxygen exchange and no toxins or irritants. I read somewhere you could keep a fish in blood as it fits the bill! I wouldn't try it however!

I think you need to adjust your attitude, people are trying to help the OP and pointing out incorrect advice such as yours could be the difference between a miserable short existence and a happy life for his fish. You aren't coming accross well.

OP - a small Hang On Back (or HOB) filter would be your best bet as it doesn't take up any room inside the tank apart from a small intake pipe. You can do a water change, add the filter then continue to do daily changes for around six weeks until the filter is cycled. Then you can add more fish if you wish to, slowly.

Edited by sadguppy, 20 July 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Dieses Madchen]

I know that you are only wanting kind of an ornamental fish tank, and I completely understand you though to to have a nice fishtank versus being completely passionate (my life revolves around my fish, im a dork) Have you thought about looking in the local ads for a larger tank? You could easily find a 30-55g tank used for next to nothing, and once cycled you vertually dont have to do much but change the water once a week. Not to mention you would then have room for error, as lldjma stated. As a somewhat novice keeper myself (only been doing it about 2 years) I made all sorts of mistakes and I can tell you from experience, my 125g was a lot more stable than my 10g.

I know you want well for your fish, but in all honesty, the tank you have is really only suited for a betta and maybe a couple of shrimp. It could make a nice betta habitat. Plant it up really nice and you have ammonia protection (but still test your water) as you filter cycles. You will have healthy plants, as plants loooove ammonia, and some potentially happy fish. WCMMs and danios really need larger tanks as they are fast swimmers. They need a lot of lenght.

Keep up posted on what you do. We will be here to help out where we can and hopefully get you on the path to the tank you want.

[Grant1897]

your fish died because your tank isnt cycled or you didnt acclimatise them. did you float them in the bag for a while and gradually add some tank water to the bag before putting them in? this is called acclimatisation. its reccomened to avoid unecessary stress on the fish. you shoudnt need a filter if you actually only stock minnows or other tiny fish. fish produced ammonia and its the bacteria that lives in filters that eventually ( very long story cut short here ) break it down into a fairly harmless substance called nitrate. seems as you have onyl small fish a filter isnt necessary but water changes are still essential! also an air pump isnt needed, hes right water changes will be enough oxygen. to be on the safe side you can get a filter which also oxygenates the tank aswell. for example fluval u1 or u2.. this all i can be bothered to type lol good luck

The statement "your fish died because your tank isn't cycled" is incompatible with the "you shouldn't need a filter if you only stock minnows" sentence. Just saying. Apostrophes provided free of charge, btw.

not really. the tank should contain used fish tank water from a cycled tank to begin with that way they are introduced into what is effectively a cycled tank, it would be easier on them than acclimatising them into simple tap water. this is my point. a little unclear i guess

Your points not unclear, it's wrong. Using used fish water will not help. I really suggest you do some research before you trying to advise people, because what your saying is wrong and will result in more fish deaths,

It simple terms It doesn't matter what water you use, fish produce waste if there is no cycled filter to remove this waste and the harmful chemicals it produces then the dirty water will harm fish.

yeah ok mate sure! get lost i know what im talking about thankyou, i gave advice. i keep my tank perfectly healthy and clean if i gave this guy my tank water it would technically be the same as me putting his fish in my tank so to speak! surely it would be better for the fish to live in my tank than just conditioned tapwater with and nothing else. exactly, youl do well to not reply as im not getting in a dispute with you!

Very mature response mate, well done your wrong and the advice your giving is wrong. End of.