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#21 Malawi MaD

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:56 AM

Seen people keep multiple males in 150G ponds, 100G is still a decent size so i dont see why not.

#22 fuzzynicki

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:13 PM

Referring only to the point in question! I am one person who has successfully kept 2 male bettas in a 260 litre (approx 57 imp gallons / 68 US gallons), along with a whole load of female bettas! I started off buying 6 females from my lfs then adding to their numbers with purchases from elsewhere. These purchases included a breeding pair of gorgeous copper dragon HM's. I added the girl to my tank and put the boy in a fry floater whilst I did some maintenance on his new home. There was no flaring from him and by the time I returned to the tank to remove him from his floater trap he was no longer in it, but swimming away happily with all my girls! No flaring and no aggression from any one of them! As my original 6 grew I notice that one of them was becoming a bit 'stroppy'. After posting pics of her on here I realised that he was infact a young PK male. I removed him from the tank and all was well. Checking out the other females I noticed another of my original 6 that looked just like the one that I'd discovered to be male. Yes,- I definitely had another male! The only thing I needed to change in the tank however was her name! My two boys made their 'home' at opposite ends of the tank,- but regularly swam into each others territories or met in the middle. There was never ever any aggression between either of them with each other, or with/from any of the girls.

I know most people would say you cannot or should not keep males together,- but I personally think it just depends on the nature of the individual betta. They are all so very different! I would not intentionally add another male in with my girls once both my males have passed on,- but I see no reason to change anything in my tank whilst they are all so peaceful together! I am very lucky I know to have found two such placid, laid back boys! :D


My tank is very densely planted with java fern at each end and floating amazon frogbit. Lots of places for them all to rest in and call their own :)

#23 Better is Betta

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:41 PM

It has often crossed my mind as to whether males can live in the same tank together but I have never invested in a big enough tank to experiment. I believe there is a member on the forum that has successfully housed 2 males in the same tank but she has a lot of females in with them and its a large heavily planted tank. I can't see why 3 males would make any more difference. I would try your tank idea with careful selection but have 7 to 8 females for distraction. The reason I feel it could work is I accidently housed 2 males together in a small 40ltr tank believing one was a female. They lived together for 2 months without any problems then one day I noticed my king pk had frayed tail fins and a small white patch on his side. I thought he had a touch of fin rot so I gave the pair a complete water change and after 3-4 days I noticed he wasn't getting much better. Luckily I discovered the mistake in time and separated them. Thats what got me thinking...maybe with careful selection and the right environment, you could be successful in housing males in the same tank. My pk didn't look all battered up like he just came off a 12 round boxing match, no he looked pretty good and the other male was untouched. So keep me in mind when you go ahead with your project as I feel this could work. :good:

#24 LilyRose Tank

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:55 PM

Hi Fishball....I too have heard of this being a very successful rtank. As long as only 3 males are used its possible. Lots and lots of plants and tonnes of hidy holes ( half buried terracotta pots of different sizes, and urns and the like. A good friend of mine has had success with this very thing, and has had her bettas for 4-5 years. good luck

#25 Whisper

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:16 PM

fuzzynicki is correct. It will depend on the individual personalities of the fish. I think what you are trying to do is admirable and so is the way you are going about it. You are doing RESEARCH first and you do have a backup plan in case it doesn't work. I have no experience with multiple Bettas in one tank so I can't help you there.

I would only suggest that when you first put the fish in, do it at the start of a long vacation so you can be home watching them constantly to insure they are not hurting each other for days. And I would watch them from afar in case their reaction to each other might be different in your presence from out of your presence.

I don't see any harm in trying this so long as you maintain your backup plan and can monitor them constantly until you are sure they are getting along. In fact, I think it's great that you are willing to do the research and put up the expense to try to do this right. I'm sure there are not many posters or Betta lovers around the world that would not want a nice big tank with several Bettas in it.

Bottom line is, you may have to go through dozens and dozens of Bettas before you get three that will get along because the biggest factor is going to be their individual personalities as fuzzynicki has said. One other thought is that when you find three that get along, you still have the question of weather they will continue to get along as they age and some of the charactoristics of their personalities may change. If one Betta weakens from old age befor the others, will the others have their way with him? Just some things you may need to think about but I hope you do it and are successful and then share your results with us here.

#26 Baccus

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:40 PM

I have often considered the possibility of keeping males (of course limted numbers together), they should quite happily develop thier own individual territories within the tank, especially if your planting and other decore provided secret nooks away from each males line of sight. Feeding too can be acheived by putting a bit of food into each males individual territory so they don't have to stray into a neighbors area.
I have heard of set ups where people have kept a group of males who tended to keep to the surface of the tank plus a group of females that had total freedom to do anywhere in the tank, in and out of the males territories without agression from either sex. To my way of thinking with a large enough tank, properly aquascaped with a resident group of bettas, would be much more natural than individual tiny tanks to house one male.
I have kept male betta's in 4ft tanks with guppies (sole male figther) without problems, they are a smart fish and quickly learn what is what within their home. And to prove there was no issues my last male lived happily with the guppies and cory's for 5 years.
I would choose my males very carefully (perhaps even aim for young males, although they may feel they have more to prove while older mature males maybe more laid back and not so inclined to fight), while selecting these males and introducing them to the tank I would keep some other smaller tanks set up just incase any need seperating. Also when introducing the males to the established planted tank I wonder if placing the male in a clear large live barer trap for a couple of days, secured in the area you most want him to claim will help with him claiming that area and pretty much sticking to it?

Good luck and please keep us posted with your endevours.

#27 lilfishie

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:55 PM

not read through the whole thing as i can imagine what has been said, but have you considered females? there are some really gorgeous females appearing recently, plus theres less risk and you could have more ;)

IMO i think it 'may' just work but please do have spare tank/s just incase :good:

#28 Fishball7

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 08:56 PM

Thanks guys! All your posts have been most appreciated. A pattern seems to emerge that, from people who have actually kept male bettas from different spawns together, either coincidentally or intentionally, the personality of the betta is one of the most important factors for such set ups to succeed, something that I didn't put a lot of thought into until now (I only thought not to get the aggressive ones, but not to spend lots of time carefully choosing).

Better is Betta "I would try your tank idea with careful selection but have 7 to 8 females for distraction."

In my original first draft plan, I did think of putting in another four female betta into the tank with the boys, but after much imagination during my insomnia one night, I decided against it because I imagined the boys would have their own territory with the girls more free-spirited (since they can be 'forced' into sorority) and less territorial, more of passing through territories to mate, therefore boys would fight over them. Moreover, it seems girls are also rather aggressive to each other and to males; they're still species-solitary by nature. I decided to remove this large, unpredictable factor which also gives more space to the boys.

Whisper I will surely watch them for hours ;D That's a good point about their old age and when/if their personalities change, regardless because of age or other factors. If it so happens that after months one of them snaps, then I would be fully prepared to put him in a 2ft tank by himself (am also wanting to do an iwagumi scape eg http://www.advanceda...agumi_large.jpg)

Baccus "To my way of thinking with a large enough tank, properly aquascaped with a resident group of bettas, would be much more natural than individual tiny tanks to house one male." That is exactly how I feel and why I want to do this. I love nature aquarium and splendens. With carefulness given to their modified aggression, it seems more natural to me.

"Feeding too can be acheived by putting a bit of food into each males individual territory so they don't have to stray into a neighbors area." Someone in another forum pointed out feeding aggression and I was just thinking of how to solve it (silly me). That is a great idea.

"I wonder if placing the male in a clear large live barer trap for a couple of days, secured in the area you most want him to claim will help with him claiming that area and pretty much sticking to it?" I wonder too, as this contrasts with my initial plan of just plopping them into the plants in different spots to find and establish boundaries. That's something I can work on. Thanks!

Edited by Fishball7, 07 October 2011 - 09:24 PM.


#29 riogal_11

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:39 PM

I am not of the opinion that this could never work. I might even get the guts to try it one day, as I sit here looking at my empty 75 gallon. I will say though that I'd add some more betta friendly fish to the mix. That way, they won't be so focused on each other. I have kept numerous females together, and they will pick a territory and stick to it. I imagine it would be similar for the males. I've heard several stories over the years that are similar to fuzzynicki so it certainly can be successful. Why not ask someone who has a new spawn coming up for sale and you can get tankmates that have already established their hierarchy? I would think that would be helpful. Goodluck, and keep us posted. About the feeding, I would try using three seperate feeding rings to it stays in that one area.

Edited by riogal_11, 07 October 2011 - 11:40 PM.


#30 Kelly-Jo

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:47 PM

"To me, the success is greatly worth it. I cannot stand betta living in small tanks and the sight of dividers. I'm willing to do a lot of research, pray for inspiration, and smartly do my best. "



Yet you don't mind watching 3 bettas get ripped to shreds by one another?

#31 Fishball7

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 12:55 AM

riogal_11 "That way, they won't be so focused on each other." I was thinking of adding a shoal of cardinal tetras, 6-8, so that they can create a neutral front area. And great idea about feeding rings! I might have to make one small enough.


As a side note, having posted in another betta forum, it amazes me the people who reply to my thread. This forum has the best people by far, while my thread in the other forum has been closed off "before it becomes more heated". I greatly appreciate your suggestions and open mindedness in allowing the possibility of the idea's success. Theoretical imagining seems to be out of reach for some people /frustrated. I think I am frustrated because if they were not closed to the idea of it, they would probably be able to suggest lots of things. Anyway, thanks. :)

#32 loraxchick

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:21 AM

As a side note, having posted in another betta forum, it amazes me the people who reply to my thread. This forum has the best people by far, while my thread in the other forum has been closed off "before it becomes more heated". I greatly appreciate your suggestions and open mindedness in allowing the possibility of the idea's success. Theoretical imagining seems to be out of reach for some people /frustrated. I think I am frustrated because if they were not closed to the idea of it, they would probably be able to suggest lots of things. Anyway, thanks. :)
[/quote]

Bettas are a very touchy subject for sure. Everyone has their own opinions and way of doing things. Opinions get tossed as fact (NOT finger-pointing at anyone at ALL for the record, just the keeping of the species as a whole)! It is important to remember there is a lot to be said by actual experience, not just what you read or hear. Fishkeeping is a hobby that is constantly changing and evolving and so should be the way of thinking. I think there is much potential with this idea. Heck, if i had the space I would try it myself. I have a spare 55 and 40 laying around empty with NO room to set them up. Such is my situation at the moment, but I keep carting the tanks everywhere with the hopes someday I can do exactly what OP is proposing. I love the species that much. Ive kept dozens of species both fresh and salt through the years, have a marine science degree and am constantly improving my abilities and knowledge in the fishkeeping area. Bettas are my favorite fish. PERIOD!
I would not even remotely say "go for it" if my knowledge said otherwise. I see this system working out fine.
Forgive me for forgetting who mentioned it, but the subject of adding females to the mix, as well as other species is a great idea.Dont worry about the males fighting "over" the females as that is not really how fish work from a natural history standpoint. The males will chose and defend their own territory and the females chose who they want to spawn with. It really is that simple. Bettas are NO different than other fish, even though for some reason they are treated differently by many in the hobby. Maybe it is because they are so individualistic, like the interaction with their caretakers (probably because they think they are going to get food...greedy pigs) and are very elegant. Their sassiness is what most people love. But I dont thing in 100 GALLONS there is going to be a blood-bath. Squabbling initially as they establish their territories and from time to time bickering, but i think if properly executed it will be very successful. I mean ciclids are "territorial fish" that fight but people done say-hey, dont house them together ..they must be separated 100% of the time!!! I Just wish i had the room to give it a go myself and prove the nay-sayers wrong as im confident your plan is going to be successful. Well done you for researching first. A big system like that has its own issues that you need to plan first. Not just which fish you are going to add.
Best of luck in your endevours. Feel free to ask away and there are plenty of knowledgeable folks on this forum (not just in the betta section either) that can help with everything from cycle, to set up to plant maintanence etc. My only request is keep us posted. Im seriously jealous!
cheers
edit to add-
at this point i think this thread has been interesting and not too heated. If it gets to that point it IS getting locked and the OP can feel free to PM individual members who they feel will be helpful. Or even the members PMing the OP to stay off the board where potential attacks may occur. This is certainly not an instance of trolling and id like to see it remain open to help the OP. It could be a learning experience for many many betta people!!! But I have no reservation in locking the subject if need be. I know how this section has been in the past (again, NOT a dig at anyone, just saying, from experience in this forum-betta section in particular).
cheers

#33 Fishball7

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:29 AM

Dont worry about the males fighting "over" the females as that is not really how fish work from a natural history standpoint. The males will chose and defend their own territory and the females chose who they want to spawn with. It really is that simple.


Oh my god. That was such a light bulb moment for me. How did I not think that it's the females that choose?! I kept imagining the boys fighting and the champion will strut up to the girl and be like, "Hey there ;)" and I'll be left with two shredded boys. LOL *smacks own head* THANKS! Would adding in another 4 girls (would I be able to have an Imbellis girl?) with 6-8 cardinals work or would it be too squishy? How many girls? In what order should I introduce each fish to the tank? Ah, I forgot to add: will the females establish their own territory, if so will it be as big as the male's? I'm fearful the female's aggressiveness as reported by many people, especially when they're much more streamlined than the slow-moving males.

"A big system like that has its own issues that you need to plan first. Not just which fish you are going to add."

I am also researching on how to setup and maintain a high tech planted tank. It's rather complicated and in depth (substrate, fertiliser and CO2 are cracking my head). Once I've determined how to go about the fish, the plant side of things will be easier.

I LOLed at your "carting the tanks everywhere" [I imagined it to be literal dragging a tank hahaha] Courting a Marine Science degree is in my to do list, pending my interviewing people about it. :) Proper documenting of everything will be definite, be it resulting in success or failure. I'm also toying with the idea of buying an underwater video camera (those small handheld ones) so I can see what they see in there (plus it would be sooooo cute to have them be curious around and flare at the camera)

Edited by Fishball7, 08 October 2011 - 01:49 AM.


#34 Hunterprey

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:45 AM

Good Luck with this one. I've kept 2 males in a 50gallon tank together and they will even eat side by side without fighting. I think they were siblings cuz they belonged from the same batch of bettas that came to my LFS. They were also the least aggressive male Bettas among the ones I have.

They didnt really fight but One male will claim a spot to rest and kick out the other Betta, the other betta just leaves without arguing. There are days where the other betta will be more dominant and also times when they peacefully share a hiding spot, its strange. I could have used more floating plants and caves tho. Eventually I transfered them to a 10 gallon divided tank cuz i prefer having my Bettas sitting closer to my Bed where I can see them up close, since theyre tiny.

I would suggest lots of floating plants and ornaments to block the line of sight, in case sudden aggression arise, giving the other Betta more chance to lose sight of the other much quicker. Lots and lots of small caves/logs as hiding spots tto provide more hiding spots so territorial issues are lessen. 100 gallons is a big tank for Bettas, im thinking this could work. Get the 6ft 100 gallon tank, I think u have better chances with that tank.

#35 OldMan47

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:10 AM

Try a thought experiment with me. Let us assume that no two male splendens can be kept in the same water with success and males cannot exist in the same water as females. Now apply that to wild splendens and what do you get? One male per creek or stream and females only in other streams? I find that exceedingly unlikely to be the case. The simple difficulty of fish ever meeting to breed would have them go extinct rather quickly. I am going to say that common sense prevents this being the real world case.
What we are left with, after examining the real world and determining that males share water with females and other males, is the need to define how big a setup must be for things to work well. It seems to me that is what this thread is all about really. Some people have obtained clues to how big a tank seems to work for at least a particular pair of males or a male with females. One day we may give advice on splendens much like we do with aggressive cichlids. That would be along the lines of a tank must be at least so big for each male and such and such minimal cover must be present to allow each male to establish his territory. I would be interested to know the numbers and the types of territorial boundary markers needed.

#36 Baccus

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 05:20 AM

I had another thought regarding how to select your male fighters for the combined tank. Rather than having to spend hours on end watching each male for agression, it occured to me that most males that have been kept side by side for a while in the pet shop/ LFS generally give up doing threat displays to their neighbors and just go about thier own thing in their own little cubicle. So this got me to thinking if possible (ie. they have the colours/ fin types) that you like or wanted already settled in side by side in the shop these might be the best fish to put into your tank. Mainly because they have already had their "sparring" matches through the glass and have given up as they could not get each other. Failing that maybe you could set up at home some typical Betta tanks side by side, allow the mlaes to get used to their neigbours and then later relaese them in that order (eg blue veiltail, beside red crown tail beside green metalic etc) and maybe they will stick to the neighbours that they already know.

#37 fuzzynicki

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:35 PM

Photos of my female betta sorority tank containing 35 females and 2 males,- all leaving peacefully together with never a nipped fin in sight! :D


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#38 Xander

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:40 PM

all leaving peacefully together with never a nipped fin in sight!

Except for the male in the 2nd and last picture with the bitten/nipped fins =P

Edited by Xander, 08 October 2011 - 05:07 PM.


#39 Fishball7

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 01:26 AM

Hunterprey Several other people have spoken about line of sight and caves/holes, so I'll be integrating that into my layout too. I thought about your 6ft idea, but with the same volume of water, it'll be too shallow for my liking. More than that, whether or not I'll raise the height, I'm not comfortable aquascaping that long a tank with my inexperience.

Baccus AWESOME. Which sparks me another idea: say I found this red halfmoon that I like, depending on approval from LFS, I'll move his jar around and see if he flares and how long he flares for at other males. I could even take another random one and record his flaring time, both as indications of aggressiveness, in case they've been sitting there for too long and only ignored their neighbours. I think that would provide another clue to how aggressive/much flaring time my fish would have that might help in others' similar future endeavors. I might try the three bottles facing each other to acclimate them, though I wonder if with a much vaster amount of water in the main tank, when I release them, if they would still fight it out because it kind of depends upon the assumption that they will recognise their neighbours in the three bottles and retain the visual memory in the main tank. I guess they would to determine their territory, but with the careful selection and tank mate orientation (which would also show if they are very aggressive) the risk of attacks would be much lessened.

I have also messaged this guy with multiple betta http://www.bettafish...?t=53682&page=2 and hopefully he'll reply to share with me his way of choosing his fish.

Whereabout in Aus are you? :) I'll be moving to Brisbane soon, which is when I'll buy all the stuff for my tank :D

fuzzynicki Wow! That is one big angel and 35 females. Is this the tank that you described above? The male pictured does seem to have nipped fins and scales.

Edited by Fishball7, 09 October 2011 - 01:29 AM.


#40 Devilish Angelfish

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:05 AM

My housemate and I used to breed Bettas and we found that just before stormy weather, the males would go into bubble-nest making mode. We figured it was the barometric pressure change that caused this. This is also the time to add the female (if she's ready, that is) - they will immediately spawn. A little research on the origins of Bettas and their environment lead me to the following conclusion: Bettas are stimulated to breed by the weather cycles. They come from a country that has flash floods, muddy ponds and shallow pools - they are good in the water channels in the rice paddys because they help keep the mosquito lavae down. They don't live in rivers as such, more little muddy pools that become their domain - this is the reason why they have a high tolerance for oxygen-poor water. When the rainy season comes, the channels, puddles, etc, overflow and the males build their bubble nest in the expectation that a female will be washed down into their spot. This is probably why a male betta will often kill a female who is not ready to spawn. Having said that, you have to know I live in Queensland, Australia (Hello, Baccus ;) ) and that we don't need heaters here so the temperatures the fish experience are the natural ones - I'm not sure they would experience the humidity and barometric pressure changes in other colder climates and so I don't know if other keepers/breeders have witnessed this breeding stimulus. :)




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