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Rotkeil Or Red Headed Severum


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#1 WittLace

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 01:36 AM

I am fairly new to fish keeping. I have a 29 gallon currently running with 2 green severum. I love them! I got them without knowing how big they would get. They are still fairly small (1-2 inches). I am interested in a bigger tank and also in different types of severum. What is the difference between rotkeil and red headed??? I cant figure out if they go by 2 names and are the same kind of fish or if they are different. I want a pair of rotkeil when I get a bigger tank of course. I have no idea where I would get them though. The lfs here is so-so. I am in Virginia. Any info would be helpful. Thanks!

#2 minnnt

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 05:14 AM

Green sevs get quite big mate, 29 gallon will stunt their growth in a big way imo. You need a bigger tank before they hit 4" I reckon. Rotkeils are the same as the red shouldered severum or at least very close. Rotkeils would be ok in a 4ft long tank and the greens/gold/red spotted would need 5ft to be fair to them. They also need quite a deep tank as they are very deep bodied.

#3 ChilliPepper

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 02:07 PM

Green sevs get quite big mate, 29 gallon will stunt their growth in a big way imo. You need a bigger tank before they hit 4" I reckon. Rotkeils are the same as the red shouldered severum or at least very close. Rotkeils would be ok in a 4ft long tank and the greens/gold/red spotted would need 5ft to be fair to them. They also need quite a deep tank as they are very deep bodied.


+1

#4 star4

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 02:16 PM

The red shouldered severum Heros efasciatus sp red shoulder grows larger than the heros severus sp. Rotkeil. Not a huge amount of difference visually, between the two but on the male red shoulder the facial markings have more lines than spots than on the male Rotkeil. Rotkeils also tend to be smaller at around 6-8". There are a lot of people selling "rotkeils" at the moment that are red-shoulder's and visa versa. Very difficult to tell when buying juvi fish, you would need to see the parents.

#5 WittLace

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:27 PM


Green sevs get quite big mate, 29 gallon will stunt their growth in a big way imo. You need a bigger tank before they hit 4" I reckon. Rotkeils are the same as the red shouldered severum or at least very close. Rotkeils would be ok in a 4ft long tank and the greens/gold/red spotted would need 5ft to be fair to them. They also need quite a deep tank as they are very deep bodied.


+1


I am definitely planning to get a bigger tank as I have learned (from reading on this forum) that they get large. I have an add on Craigslist and am going to look at one in the next couple of days. They are funny fish and I like keeping them.

#6 hamfist

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 05:50 PM

The red shouldered severum Heros efasciatus sp red shoulder grows larger than the heros severus sp. Rotkeil. Not a huge amount of difference visually, between the two but on the male red shoulder the facial markings have more lines than spots than on the male Rotkeil. Rotkeils also tend to be smaller at around 6-8". There are a lot of people selling "rotkeils" at the moment that are red-shoulder's and visa versa. Very difficult to tell when buying juvi fish, you would need to see the parents.


ABsolutely spot on !

#7 Wills

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 06:03 PM


The red shouldered severum Heros efasciatus sp red shoulder grows larger than the heros severus sp. Rotkeil. Not a huge amount of difference visually, between the two but on the male red shoulder the facial markings have more lines than spots than on the male Rotkeil. Rotkeils also tend to be smaller at around 6-8". There are a lot of people selling "rotkeils" at the moment that are red-shoulder's and visa versa. Very difficult to tell when buying juvi fish, you would need to see the parents.


ABsolutely spot on !


Agreed as well :) I can kind of tell the difference between Orange Shoulders and Rotkiels, Orange Shoulders are a more square fish with more lateral compression ie longer than they are square/round? Dont know if anyone else has observed this? Also I have noticed in shops that Orange Shoulders have longer trailing Ventral Fins

Wills

#8 GS1981

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 08:25 PM

As far as i knew, Rotkeils and Red Shoulders are the same thing, Orange Shoulders are different

#9 acreteos

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 02:54 PM

may I add Rotkeil means red neck in German, a lot of the time rotkeils are labelled as red necked or red neck, red shoulder etc. so beware of being ripped off.

I have also kept Rotkeil, super red, gold, and a green severum. They all tend to get the same size and have the same personality, Rotkeils aren't any different other than colouration.

Heres mine

young
Posted Image
older
Posted Image
Posted Image

#10 GS1981

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 03:50 PM

That middle photo is not yours, it belongs to a guy on MFK....unless this is you under a different name.

#11 Wills

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 05:36 PM

I have to disagree Actreteos, Rotkiels do indeed stay smaller than Efasticous. If your Rotkiels got to the same size as Efasticous (Greens and Golds) then you would have the Orange Shoulder thats in question here.

Within the Heros species there are 3 recognised complexes - similar to the differences between the three Geophagus complexes. I know it has something to do with the anal fin that splits them but the indication of the anal fin tends to dictate the patterns in the size of the Heros species. It groups Heros Severus and Rotkiel along with a few other undescribed species and strains together, then Apendectulatus, Efasticious, Notatus and a few other undescribed species and then in the third is Spirius (spelling) and further more undescribed species.

Red necks in Severums are not an uncommon thing so there are quite a few strains in the hobby now and I bet different strains appear differently between UK and USA and even UK and Europe.

True Rotkiels will not get over 8 inches though, where as Efasticious will getting up towards 12 inches and a lot thicker and meatier.

Wills

#12 star4

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 10:48 PM

I kept and bred rotkeils, they do not get bigger than 8" no where near the size of the Efasticous. I have red spot, gold and Belem, all are much larger than my mature rotkeil.

#13 ChilliPepper

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 09:56 AM

may I add Rotkeil means red neck in German, a lot of the time rotkeils are labelled as red necked or red neck, red shoulder etc. so beware of being ripped off.

I have also kept Rotkeil, super red, gold, and a green severum. They all tend to get the same size and have the same personality, Rotkeils aren't any different other than colouration.

Heres mine

young
Posted Image
older
Posted Image
Posted Image


I also disagree - Sevs do not all have the same personalities. What a sweeping statement.
For example, my Red Spot has far more personality than my Rotkeils. Dunno why. Also find Greens do too. Efasticous tend to wiggle their fins, swim in funny directions, and get in hormonal tantrums :lol:

Rotkeils don't get to their size either. They are much thinner bodied too. My Red Spot is a chunk of a fish and my Rotkeils much more slender.

#14 acreteos

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 02:57 PM

yes I am on MFK too, didn't think anyone would realise just from one photo lol.
so that's that cleared up.

Wills, I didn't know that it's really interesting thanks for sharing, so you think that the fish I had was a red shoulder? may I add that it was part of a wild caught pair, so it is possible they got the name wrong.

Chillipepper, this is what i have found personally after keeping all of the types of severum, obviously it differs from keeper to keeper, and I'm glad others have had different experiences to me, the only thing I will say about the types of severum is that the Golds I had were a lot more aggressive but that could have been down to the individual fish, not the colour strain :)

#15 Wills

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 05:36 PM

Wills, I didn't know that it's really interesting thanks for sharing, so you think that the fish I had was a red shoulder? may I add that it was part of a wild caught pair, so it is possible they got the name wrong.


Ah right really interesting!! Any idea of catch location? As I say, colouration around the shoulders is not that rare in Heros and there are a number of regional variants that have it distributed quite diversely. In a recent practical fish keeping Hieko Bleher did an article and listed three or four Heros species that all had red necks but were all listed as different species rather than just one - though they were undescribed they came in under sp.1 sp.2 etc etc.

Interesting for an other reason though, given the some what unpredictable movements of many of the fishermen there is a good chance that there are now so many red shouldered severums in the hobby rather than straight Rotkiel that they may not even be importing the true Rotkiel any more....

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#16 GS1981

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 07:05 PM

Bare in mind this is the same Hieko Bleher who says Blood Parrots are not hybrids because he discovered them in the wild and are just deformed Midas, and also said the original Flowerhorn, he also discovered was a strangley coloured umbee.

I don't trust anything he says unless its about discus.

#17 Wills

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 11:07 PM

Bare in mind this is the same Hieko Bleher who says Blood Parrots are not hybrids because he discovered them in the wild and are just deformed Midas, and also said the original Flowerhorn, he also discovered was a strangley coloured umbee.

I don't trust anything he says unless its about discus.


Mmmm fair enough but the way they were split regionally and also in the photos there were differences in head shape etc etc.

Wills

#18 micko

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 12:35 AM

I love my severum. I really do find it extremely hard to get any others than the golden and green. I had to wait months before my LFS could get any red spotted for me.
I'd love to get red shouldered and rotkeil but its impossible. I live in Northern Ireland by the way and I found one rotkeil on gumtree but the seller was wanting too high a price.

Hopefully I'll be able to get them and more varierties one day.

#19 DRE

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 01:59 AM

As far as I understand there are 4 species of Heros:
Heros efasciatus
Heros notatus
Heros severus
Heros spurius

and Heros sp. "red shoulder" are the same as rotkeil and the same species as efasciatus although caught in rio Nanay. This is the only location with red shouldered Heros, afaik.

in the hobby there has been Heros bred with different coloration such as red or yellowish anal fin, but not sure if those differencies are found in wild locations.

The pictures acreteos posted are just same species with different age, mood and such.

I might be wrong, but this has been made clear for me many times.

#20 bonzo

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 09:40 AM

I love my severum. I really do find it extremely hard to get any others than the golden and green. I had to wait months before my LFS could get any red spotted for me.
I'd love to get red shouldered and rotkeil but its impossible. I live in Northern Ireland by the way and I found one rotkeil on gumtree but the seller was wanting too high a price.

Hopefully I'll be able to get them and more varierties one day.


Hi Micko. The sev on gumtree belonged to us. She was wildcaught and bought from Grosvenor at a higher price than what we were asking. You'll find a fish that size and wild will be no cheaper than anywhere you go. The reason we got rid of her was because we have now got 2 pairs and she was excess.

Edited by bonzo, 07 July 2011 - 09:46 AM.





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