61 replies to this topic

[Themuleous]

DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK. I accept no responsibility for any loss, damage or injury suffered if you follow this 'manual' and something goes wrong, that's YOUR fault not mine.

Hi all

Before I start a BIG word re safely, these cylinders (read the other posts) are potential killers, but if you are sensible and treat it with respect you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

There have been several threads recently about pressurised CO2, so I thought as I was setting up a new system I would show everyone how to do it cheaply using a fire extinguisher. So first you need a cylinder, these do vary in size but this 2kg cylinder is 23" tall (that is a DVD case next to it) and I got it on eBay for £22 including delivery from here

<a href="http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZ123safer4u" target="_blank">http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZ123safer4u</a>



Then you need a reg, again I got mine on eBay, you can spend as much as you like on a reg but these are cheap and I've found them to be excellent, with a very easy needle value built in.

<a href="http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Aquarianerversand...sQ3amesstQQtZkm" target="_blank">http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Aquarianerversand...sQ3amesstQQtZkm</a>



You'll need to remove the horn, which was easier to do than I had expected, just use a variable wrench. On a safety note it's a good idea to keep the safety pin in to prevent the lever from accidentally being squeezed whilst the horn is removed. Once the regulator is safely attached then remove the pin. If the extinguisher were to accidentally go off without the horn attached it can do a fair bit of harm as liquid CO2 comes out very fast. (Thanks James)







The reg didn't actually fit quite as snug as I had expected however its working find so no problems and this might be the same with all regs and cylinders to ensure a secure fit.



Tighten it well with the wrench, as if you don't it could cause you problems when you 'fire' the FE and we don't want people getting hurt now do we!





Now take it outside in order to 'fire' the FE to release the CO2. I was expecting an explosion or something when I did this, but I had tightened the reg nut well and a short hiss was all I got, good actually I don't want to lose my arms! The needle on the reg should go to around 50 bar and the other gauge is set using the larger black dial on the front of the reg. I don't think it really matters what you set this to, I just went for 1.5 bar for no reason at all!



You'll need to keep the handles closed to keep the CO2 flowing, I used gaffa tape.



Next check for leaks using soapy water



Now link it up to a bubble counter with check value to protect the reg from back flow.



The attach a diffuser. I'm a hugh fan of ceramic glass diffusers as they look the business and work a treat and really aren't that expensive. I love eBay and got mine from here

http://stores.ebay.c...sQ3amesstQQtZkm



And some CO2 tubing

http://www.aquaessen...9qnjl48lsia52s7

Then set the bubble rate and add to the tank





Once install, be sure to secure the cylinder carefully, either by chaining it to the wall or similar, anything to stop it being knocked over. In the words of James, if the reg gets knocked off the cylinder could take off, through the roof by the sounds on things! Better to be safe

This whole kit cost we around £70-75 quid and should last at least a year before I need a refill.

Hope that's of help to people

Sam

Edited by Themuleous, 30 April 2008 - 07:10 AM.

[DevUK]

Sam, you are the best! As you know, this is the same system I'm going with, after your very helpful advice (along with everyone else!) I have the fire extinguisher ready to go, need to order the regulator/needle valve now. Might wait till after pay day as funds are short.

+1 for sticky vote!

[mlawson]

Well, I just ordered a whole pressurised system anyway, but I'm sure this is very useful to a lot of people so I also think it should be pinned.

[JamesC]

Nice one Sam. On a safety note it's a good idea to keep the safety pin in to prevent the lever from accidently being squeezed whilst the horn is removed. Once the regulator is safely attached then remove the pin. If the extinguisher were to accidently go off without the horn attached it can do a fair bit of harm as liquid CO2 comes out very fast.

James

[dane261]

mes getting a co2 kit hahahahahaha


thanks for the idea

dane

[Themuleous]

Thanks guys

Good point James, Ive edited it to include your suggestion.

Sam

[blue acara]

Good post sam. When I was first thinking about pressurized co2 this post would have been very helpful.
pressurized co2 for cheap, if /when I set another tank ill give that regulator a try.

I also use co2 from the ebay company you have linked- a 5kg bottle. good price/product and fast delivery.

[zig]

Nice guide Sam

I think the working pressure should always be around 1 1/2 - 2 bar for a nice safe level with a good bit of leeway either side of too high and too low, so you have it set right as it is now, any lower and the working pressure is too low, the output bubble rate gets erratic if at 1 bar or lower.

Temperature will also play a role in the working pressure and affect your bubble rate output so beware setting up a new cylinder brought in from the cold outside, better to let it reach room temperature so keep a good eye on the bubble rate until it does.

But nice guide for those yet to take the plunge into pressurised CO2.

[Rob.S]

Very useful guide.

Do you not use a night shut off solenoid Sam?

[DevUK]

Not any more, he's about to sell it to me!

[Rob.S]

Not any more, he's about to sell it to me!

I wonder if he knows that

So Sam will be running 24 hr co2 then?

[gowing238]

Sorry to spoil the party people. This may be a cheap way to make a CO2 system but it is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!!!!!. I am a service engineer for a company that makes high pressured lifting devies for the emergency services. Whilst you are fiddling about with a cylinder with 50BAR of c02 that is ready to come gushing out with one wrong move you are dicing with death. Just an example for you to understand how much 50bar of pressure is 2 years ago a fireman was killed when a breathing apparatus cylinder regulator came loose. This cylinder was 18Bar and was 5 feet from where he was standing and it blew half his face off. So imagine 50bar when your loosening with a spanner. It would like be sitting on a plane when a bomb went off.

My last word on this is DONT DICE WITH DEATH. High pressure cylinders should not be messed around with by unqualified people.

[Themuleous]

Not any more, he's about to sell it to me!

I wonder if he knows that

So Sam will be running 24 hr co2 then?

He does know that and yeh I run it 24/7, no problems at all

My last word on this is DONT DICE WITH DEATH. High pressure cylinders should not be messed around with by unqualified people.

Fair point. You can buy 500g JBL CO2 cylinders from a fair few local fish shops, they run at 50bar. Would this also include welding people?

Sam

[Dave Spencer]

Sorry to spoil the party people.
My last word on this is DONT DICE WITH DEATH. High pressure cylinders should not be messed around with by unqualified people.

What constitutes messing about with them, and what qualifications do we need?

Dave.

[Davver]

Great post Sam! I've been using this system for a year or so and it works brilliantly... I use cable ties to hold my handles together as gaffer tape will probably give way at some point...


As for messing about....... 'And there it was, gone!'

Dave.

[JamesC]

My last word on this is DONT DICE WITH DEATH. High pressure cylinders should not be messed around with by unqualified people.

I'm afraid to say but gowing238 is correct in what he has said, if a little alarmist. CO2 cylinders are highly dangerous pieces of equipment and must be treated with extreme care. If the top is knocked off or regulator comes off they can quite easily kill and even go through brick walls. Fire extinguishers are more dangerous than aquarium and pub cylinders due to the fact that they use syphon tubes. These are incorporated into extinguishers to enable the release of CO2 as quickly as possible so to put out the fire. Because the syphon tube draws the CO2 from the bottom it means that liquid CO2 is expelled rather than gaseous CO2 in aquarium and pub cylinders.

All cylinders should be safely secured so they are not able to be knocked over. I have a 6.35KG pub bottle that is secured to the wall by a chain and also has protection around the regulator to prevent any accidental damage. I used to work in a lab for many years and have seen the damage that a gas bottle can do. Somebody I know of in the States used to get his CO2 cylinder refilled from a filling station. One day he went to get a refill and it was gone - including the bloke who was filling a cylinder at the time.

Just be careful folks

James

[George Farmer]

Sorry regrettably I am removing this thread, I dont want to get sued by anyone. I will keep the post to let people know if they ask, but in this litigious world I cant afford to risk it and thats crap I know but I can't. Sorry everyone

Sam

If you write a disclaimer at the start of the thread then you cannot be sued. "Do this at you own risk etc. etc.". Highlight the dangers.

Sure, pressurized CO2, in particular fire extinguishers are dangerous, if not treated with care and respect.

I agree with the statement, "High pressure cylinders should not be messed around with by unqualified people." They shouldn't be "messed around" with by qualified people either.

FYI I work with 3000psi nitrogen bottles used in fighter aircraft weapons systems...

Of course, I'm sorry for the losses of life experienced by folk via pressurized CO2 accidents. But those filling and working with them every day are inherently more at risk. They get complacent sometimes too. That's the biggest danger here - not the CO2.

Follow the steps ensuring safety pin is in etc. etc. then what we are doing with fire extinguishers is no more dangerous than pressurized CO2 with an "aquarium" cylinder.

As James says, be careful. Like you are mixing electricity and water and all the other risks this hobby presents.

Anyway, great thread, Sam. Sorry you felt you had to delete the OP. Feel free to re-instate it.

FYI I'm writing a step-by-step on this for PFK magazine. With plenty of warnings and a disclaimer, of course.

[Dave Spencer]

I have worked with high pressure cylinders in the RAF as well, and continue to do so in the power industry. I am not aware of any formal qualification that I require to continue working with them.

Highlighting the inherent dangers of using pressurised gas would make a sufficient disclaimer and cover your rear end, Sam. I rent CO2 cylinders from a welding shop without having to demonstrate any kind of competency or qualification in handling them, and the suppliers have not warned me of the hazards associated with pressurised cylinders.

Common sense and the subconscious risk assessments we carry out every time we do something is considered sufficient, otherwise none of us would have gas or electricity supplied to our homes. In this hobby we are all using 220V in close proximity to water like George mentions, and we don`t get electrocuted due to common sense, not because we are qualified electricians.

Perhaps if you reinstated it with a disclaimer, then gave a variety of people the opportunity to give their input and observations, such as James`, a definitive article could be written and pinned.

Thanks to Gowing for bringing this to the fore, but we shouldn`t get too alarmist.

Dave.

[JamesC]

Wooops, hope I didn't come over too alarmist - just my style of writing .

As already mentioned common sense is needed. I just wanted to tell people of the possible dangers as not everyone is fully aware of what a pressurised cylinder can do.


James

[JamesC]

This was posted on the Barr Report the other day - One of the dangers of planted tanks!. Not the first time I've heard this either.

James

Edited by JamesC, 14 September 2007 - 05:00 PM.