I would take up the offer, but be extremely cautious with the new fish you are picking out. Make sure it is thick, active and eating vigorously. Examine them for a good half hour and see who is at the top of the pecking order. Take him.




Btw just read through Rabbut's post and don't think we need to force feed quite yet. Some Discus go for even a month without eating (especially wild caught that won't accept frozen foods.)

This Discus could easily go a week without food. I have been told before that it is bad to force feed. There is a reason he isn't eating, so instead of making him eat, it is better to fix the problem.



This post has been edited by DiscusLova: May 26 2008, 02:57 AM

Ok, so I beleive I'll be bringing him back (this is one of the reasons I like this store so much, he is a really great guy to deal with). But I have another question that I've been getting mixed answers to. I was thinking when I get the new guy it will be hard on him to be added to the group as the "new guy" and was thinking that if I get 2 new ones it will help spread out and agression to the new guys. That would put me at 7 discus. I don't know if that's too many or not and would like your opinions. I have one that is for sure at the top of the pecking order and a bit pushy so I don't know if having more fish would help or not.

Thanks

i wouldn't get anymore Discus as overstocking can also cause problems, just exchange the ill one and if you have problems move the decor in tank around a little this can be enough to disorentate the bullys for a little.
try offering brine shrimp they find this hard to resist
good luck regards Angel

I would follow Angels advise to the letter The issue you have with any parasitic infection of the gut, that may be the issue here, is that baths occasionaly don't work. Medicated food is IME the most effective way of ridding the problem, but if they aren't eating... I agree that it is too early to force feed yet, I'm just advising that it may be an idea to be prepaired to do it if nesissary.

Swaping the struggling fish as the owner has offered to allow you to do is the best cource of action That is one excelent shop you have found, if he is prepaired to take back in ill fish

All the best
Rabbut

Thanks guys, I think I will stick to the 6, it's probably the smart thing to do. Now I do have a question about the new one I'll be getting and whether to QT or not. I can as I have an empty 20g but this guy will be coming from the same place (same store, same tank, and same supplier) as the ones I already have and it, like the ones I have will have already been dewormed. Do a Qt it? It seems like that would be a bit stressful for the little guy.

And I haven't tried brine shrimp but I have mixed mysis shrimp in with the bloodworms and I think they've eaten a bit of that. I'd really like to get them onto some sort of pellet as well becuase I don't think bloodworms alone is enough nutrtion wise.

And yes, this is an excellent store and I'm extremely happy that I have a place like this to go to.

I'd QT to be on the safe side. Discus diseases are similar and many, and treatment differs greatly. You would need time to make a proper diagnosis, and in QT this is no big issue. In the main tank with more than £100 of fish, time may be something that you feel you don't have. I'd mebe go shorter than normal at 2 weeks (I usualy give 1-2 months QT before the discus tank) to reduce stress, as anything he is carrying that takes longer to show will probibly already be on the other fish Things that show in this space of time probibly won't be in the main tank already

HTH
Rabbut

Thanks for the help. You don't think being alone in a bare tank for 2 weeks is too stressful? I don't want to cause the new one anymore stress than I have too. Not that I'm against QT'ing in general, I've just never done it. I have had a few outbreaks of ich, but overall I've never had any major problems (especially with fish from this particular store). It just seems a bit much to catch the poor thing, transport him home, put him in a new tank alone for 2 weeks and then toss him in with the group where he'll probably be low man on the totem pole. I do plan on re-arranging some things to hopefully help. I've only had these other guys for just over a week now so I'd imagine if the new guy has anything, these guys will have it as well.

I'm not knocking your advice, just wondering if QT'ing in this case is really needed. If I had had the discus for months and then wanted to add a new one, I wouldn't even question it, I'd QT, but I haven't had these guys that long, if I had QT'd them, they'd still be there anyway.

It's your call realy, I'd QT personaly. QT tanks don't need to be bare, it is often best to add a plant pot on it's side or something similar to give the occupants cover The bonus of QT'ing is being able to get him/her used to your main tanks' water more slowly. Say 10% daily waterchanges re-filling with water form the main will make for a slower change from the shops tank conditions to yours, and should be less stressful. The QT period would also allow the new fish to regain it's strength after being moved, so it can put up a fight and move up the pecking order after introduction
It is possible to move the new one strait in, and the level of risk would be lower than normal, particularly if you fully trust the shop

Your call
All the best
Rabbut

Ok, I just wanted to share this. I was watching the tank this afternoon, particularily around feeding time and I'm starting to wonder if the blue diamonds eating problem is more of a social problem than a health problem. My other blue diamond as well as my smallest golden phoenix aren't eating well all of a sudden either. I think the culprit may be my larger golden phoenix (who is slightly larger than the others). This golden is very pushy about food, to the point of pushing everyone else out of the way, I had noticed it a bit but it seems to have gotten worse over the last few days. I wonder if the little diamond just decided it wasn't goin to bother trying anymore? My 2 spotted greens get chased as well but that doesn't seem to stop them from eating. Could this be the problem and what can I do about it?

Could be the issue. IME it is best left, as the fish should sort themselves. Moving or messing them about to reduce the agression resets the pecking order, and thus will likely prolong the issue IME. Might be best getting a second opinion on that though, as I've never had increadibly serious issues with social agression to a point where fish stop eating over it

All the best
Rabbut

I have heard before that if bullying gets bad, Discus can get so stressed and depressed that they will stop eating entirely...

If you see this start happening to other Discus separate the aggressive one and see if it helps.


Discus are really finicky eaters. I know it is really hard to just turn your head and not look into too much (Trust me, I used to get really scared for my Discus if I see even the slightest problem) but sometimes it's better to not worry about it, a lot of the stuff I worried about turned out to be nothing. It may seem like the Discus aren't eating but sometimes they like to pick at the bottom for odds and ends (similar to their natural feeding behavior.) I have Discus that go for the cube of food I drop in and others that hang by the side and wait for the scraps.

This post has been edited by DiscusLova: May 26 2008, 10:49 PM

I've gotten a few opinions to move the aggressive one for a week or two and see what happens. So I'm going to try it, I hope I don't stress anyone out too much but now that I've got 2 that aren't eating and I've seen the bully push one away from food, I think I have to try it. If the blue diamond doesn't start eating a few days after I remove the bully I think I will return it and swap for another. I don't know if the fact that the bully is the largest fish in the tank (not by much) has anything to do with it being a bully or not.

Wow, I think I'm finding out why people label discus as difficult. Most other fish would have to be beaten to a pulp by a bully to stop eating!

sheila what are you feeding them on . i feed mine beef heart and they lap it up they turn down bloodworm for .

jagz

Right now I'm feeding bloodworms with some mysis mixed in. At first they would only eat the bloodworms, but since I mix the mysis in so well, I don't think they realize they are getting it. I've been told not to feed beefheart as it makes too much of a mess and they don't need it. I've also heard people saying it is not good for them since it is an unnatural protein source for them. I don't know, I'm just a newbie to this discus thing.

I moved the bully into the "time out" tank this afternoon and it has been there now for a few hours. It doesn't seem to put out by being moved and is still eating, just a little shy. But what a difference in the smaller golden that wasn't eating! It ate this evening and it even nipped at one of the spotted greens! I'm very happy to see such a quick change in that one. The blue diamond is still looking pretty sad and is now hovering near the top. I was going to hang onto it to see if it starts eating now that the bully is gone, but I think I may just end up returning it. I really just want a happy healthy tank so I think it would be best to trade this guy in for one that is eating.

My next concern will be what happens when the bully goes back into the main tank? It is bigger than the rest so I guess that gives it a bit of an unfair advantage.

I'd surgest giving the bully less protien in his diet while the others grow on. This will let the fish in the main tank grow to his size, then you should be able to re-introduce him without issues. Try and give the bully a high carbohydrate diet in the "time out" tank and his growth rate will slow, while feeding more protien to the fish in the main tank so their growth rate speeds up.
Don't reduce waterchanges or feedings on the bully to slow growth rate as this will stunt him. Offering less protien is the only safe way to reduce growth rate

You are right in thinking that beef heart isn't good for discus, and the issue does lie with the protien Land animal baced protien sorces break down into a type of fat that discus absorb but cannot use. Though it is only in timy ammounts, with time it will build up arround the vital organs, caursing organ failure and then death. Beef heart is also realy messy, and will quickly degrade water quality unless fed in a non-decorated tank that is waterchanged at least every other day

Protien IMO should only be offered while your fish are growing, as once they are grown they don't need lots of it in their diets. If they get more protien than needed, they will break it down into energy, with lots of ammonia as a waste by-product. Offering high carbohydrate foods to the adult fish would mean that the still get their energy, but the only by-product worth mentioning is CO2, which obviously gases off at the surface This poses no real risk to the waterquality, and will alow you to reduce your water change shedual, as less nitrate and disolved organics will be being released

All the best
Rabbut

Ok, new update. I think the biggest source of my problems/stress with these fish (besides the one not eating) comes from trying to listen to everyone's opinions. I've been in this hobby long enough to know that everyone has a different way of doing things and there really is no right or wrong way, just what works and what doesn't. That being said, I've decided to try to stick to one person's advice that person being the lfs store owner I got the fish from, he's very knowledgeable on discus and breeds them as well. What he told me today is pretty well on par with what the majority of people have said (stupid me, went with the minority when starting this tank). I had 2 people tell me to go the planted route, stupid me, should have known better, I've never done plants before so doing a discus/planted tank to start off with was a bad idea. Most people said barebottom with no decor was the best way to raise baby discus (including the lfs owner), stupid me, I put in sand and plants.

So, I went to the store today to bring back the not eating one, and swap him and when I got home I pulled out all the plants and got out some of the sand (I think it will take a few w/c to get it all out). It's funny but now with all the plants gone, the discus are all over the place and not hiding at all. He also said (as did another discus expert in my area) it is better to keep them a bit overstocked in barebottom tanks, becuase more fish means less aggression and of course barebottom is easier to clean. So I now have 7 discus with no plants in what is soon to be a barebottome tank (at least until they are adults) and they are swimming all over the place! I should have never let myself get talked into doing plants in the first place! Oh well, I guess that's the thing about the hobby, it would get pretty boring if there was nothing new to learn. Now I just hope everyone behaves themselves and eats!

Also, I'm just wondering what brands of flake/pellets you guys feed your discus? I would like them to eat a good variety.

Thanks so much for the help guys! I appreciate it and will keep you posted.

Sounds good. This forum is good for opinions, but ultimately you have to make the decision you think is best. It is a learning process but after a while you should will be an excellent Discus know-it-all!

I think my favorite brands have to be Omega One, Hikari, and Tetra. They all make high quality good my fish love.